Thursday, June 23, 2011

The Religious Left in Canada


The New Democratic Party's "Faith and Social Justice Commission" has produced a video to prove that you can be religious and socialist.

My position is that religion should be kept out of politics. There should not be a "Faith and Social Justice Commission" sanctioned by the NDP. (Is there also an "Unfaith and Social Justice Commission" for all those atheists who believe in social justice?)

I have no problem with individuals adhering to one religion or another but keep it personal. There's no need to band together in order to influence policy within the government or even within a party. Frankly I don't care why you support socialist progressive policies as long as you do. Don't try and make it look like religion is what motivates you to favor the left because that just makes you look as silly as the right-wing fundamentalists who use religion to defend their position.



[Hat Tip: Canadian Atheist]

98 comments :

  1. There's no need to band together in order to influence policy within the government or even within a party


    That sounds an aweful lot like what religion is...doeen't it?

    ReplyDelete
  2. The only place for religion in government is for the government to protect the right to freedom of religion.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Heck, a lot of what Jesus talked about was closer to socialism and communism than any kind of free market capitalism. At least they could be more consistent with their holy book than US conservatives are.

    Not that a religious backing, of any kind, pulls any weight with me.

    ReplyDelete
  4. John K. says,

    Heck, a lot of what Jesus talked about was closer to socialism and communism than any kind of free market capitalism.

    The good news is that American school children are soon going to learn a lot more about the values of socialism.

    There's a movement afoot to teach more critical thinking in the public schools, including both sides of controversial topics. That means the teachers are now going to explain the benefits of socialism and communism so that students can make up their own minds about such things.

    At least I think that's the intent of the new laws being passed in Louisiana and other states.

    ReplyDelete
  5. The Rat sez:

    the right to freedom of religion

    And presumably freedom from religion.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Moran posted:
    "There's a movement afoot to teach more critical thinking in the public schools, including both sides of controversial topics."

    Do you think that teaching more critical thinking in the public schools including both sides of controversial topics, is a good idea?

    ReplyDelete
  7. The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.

    And the related principle:

    Liberals are generous with other people's money.


    Wouldn't it be great if these ideas were presented to students in the public schools, as part of their learning more critical thinking skills.

    ReplyDelete
  8. anonymous says,

    The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.

    Really? Most modern western industrialized nations have a mixed economy where socialism plays a major role (e.g. socialized medicine). None of them seem to have run out of money.

    Taxes are not YOUR money. It's the price you pay for living in a society that provides you with all of the benefits you enjoy. If you are lucky enough to be rich, it's the way you choose to help out those who are less lucky than you were.

    And the related principle:

    Liberals are generous with other people's money.


    Money collected by the government is not "other people's money." It's OUR (collective) money. Our representatives are charged with the responsibility of spending that money to advance the social good.

    Wouldn't it be great if these ideas were presented to students in the public schools, as part of their learning more critical thinking skills.

    Yes, it would. In fact it happens in many schools throughout the world and that's why the citizens of so many countries do not vote for strictly free market capitalism.

    To most of us, it's truly astonishing that Americans are so opposed to universal health care. Having seen how the American press vilifies the health care plans of other countries (e.g. Canada) I can only hope for an improvement in critical thinking.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Moran posted:
    "None of them seem to have run out of money."

    I guess Moran does not follow the news. Take a look at Europe. They are bankrupt.
    That is where socialism leads you.
    They have run out of spending other people's money.

    The socialist idea has been tried. Bankruptcy follows. And rioting in the street follows that. (It has already begun).
    If you can overlook what is happening right now then you are completely hopeless.

    Perhaps it is because you live in the cocoon of the tenured University world that you are so out of touch with the world we actually live in.

    ReplyDelete
  10. anonymous asks,

    Do you think that teaching more critical thinking in the public schools including both sides of controversial topics, is a good idea?

    Yes, I do think it's a good idea. I think we should teach students how to think about the age of the Earth, for example. Students should be taught the basic science behind dating technology and then they should analyze what the Bible and other religious texts say about it. They should engage in critical thinking in order to understand whether scientists are correct of whether the local pastor of one of the churches is correct.

    Same for evolution. Students should be taught the fundamental principles of modern evolutionary theory and the known facts about the history of life. Then they should invite a local IDiot to come to class and explain why all those things are wrong. This would be followed by an extensive class discussion about who is right and who is wrong. When students try and use their personal religious beliefs to defend an anti-science position those beliefs should be subjected to critical thinking by the entire class.

    One of the big advantages of a critical thinking approach is that nothing is immune or protected from examination. This includes religion and belief in the supernatural. It would be exciting to have religious and non-religious students thrash this out in class under the guidance of a good teacher.

    This would be a wonderful experience for religious students since they hardly ever get a chance to show that their beliefs can stand up to critical thinking (or not, if that turns out to be the case).

    ReplyDelete
  11. Moran posted:
    "Same for evolution. Students should be taught the fundamental principles of modern evolutionary theory and the known facts about the history of life. Then they should invite a local IDiot to come to class and explain why all those things are wrong. This would be followed by an extensive class discussion about who is right and who is wrong. When students try and use their personal religious beliefs to defend an anti-science position those beliefs should be subjected to critical thinking by the entire class.

    You are mixing ID and religion. If an ID proponent actually did come to class as you suggested he/she would not talk about religion.

    You let your bias cloud even the simplest things.

    ReplyDelete
  12. anonymous says,

    The socialist idea has been tried. Bankruptcy follows. And rioting in the street follows that. (It has already begun).

    If you can overlook what is happening right now then you are completely hopeless.

    Perhaps it is because you live in the cocoon of the tenured University world that you are so out of touch with the world we actually live in.


    Perhaps. On the other hand, I visited several countries last year including two in Europe (Belgium and France). I missed all the rioting in the streets and the talk of bankruptcy. Guess I must just have been there at the wrong time. Were you there during the riots? When was that?

    The third country I visited was the United States. I didn't see any rioting in the streets but I did hear a lot of talk about bankruptcy. Is that because the USA is a socialist country?

    Canada is much more socialist than the USA but we're not having nearly as many economic problems. That's partly because our banks were well regulated (socialist policy). Our citizens do not face personal bankruptcy when they have major medical problems (socialist policy).

    Socialism is not the bogeyman you think it is. If you could teach critical thinking in American schools you might raise a whole new generation that didn't have as myopic a view as you do.

    ReplyDelete
  13. anonymous says,

    You are mixing ID and religion. If an ID proponent actually did come to class as you suggested he/she would not talk about religion.

    Imagine that we really could have a local IDiot visit a high school class to talk about the intelligent designer.

    Do you honestly think that high school students would be fooled into thinking this has nothing to do with creationism and God?

    You don't give young people enough credit. Most of them are way smarter than you.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Moran is certainly slippery. You must give him that.
    If an ID person came to class he/she would not talk about the nature of an intelligent designer. That is not an element of ID.
    You know that, but pretend not to know it.
    Your bias is such that you cannot even have a simple honest discussion.
    And your sarcasm and arrogance cannot hide that.

    ReplyDelete
  15. There have been riots in a few European countries already.
    Moran you should follow the news if you are going to discuss this subject.
    Are you at all familiar with what is going on in Greece for example? Perhaps you do not follow the news in that nice University cocoon.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Do a google search on "Greece riots"
    You will see articles like:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1257243/Greek-riots-Up-60-000-people-streets-protest-government.html
    "Greece rocked by riots as up to 60,000 people take to streets to protest against government."

    It is inconceivable that anyone can be ignorant of what is going on.

    ReplyDelete
  17. @anonymous,

    I'm aware of the fact that there have been riots in Greece. There have also been riots in Syria and I lived through riots in the United States.

    Are you trying to say that all riots are caused by socialism?

    ReplyDelete
  18. anonymous says,

    If an ID person came to class he/she would not talk about the nature of an intelligent designer. That is not an element of ID.

    How many IDiots do you know who have not talked about the nature of the intelligent designer? How many of them really think that the designer could be someone other than God—usually the Christian God?

    You are truly an IDiot if you think one of your IDiot friends could come to a class of high school students and not end up having to address the issue of God and creationism. That's not consistent with critical thinking.

    The typical IDiot often behaves like you're behaving here on Sandwalk. They attack evolution (stupidly) and avoid talking about Intelligent Design Creationism. But if you had to actually defend Intelligent Desing Creationism in front of an audience you would be hard-pressed to keep God out of the picture. (Unless you were prepared to lie.)

    ReplyDelete
  19. Anonymous - "If an ID person came to class he/she would not talk about the nature of an intelligent designer. That is not an element of ID."

    Intellectual honesty would require them to. If you're going to postulate that we are intelligently designed than you can't leave the subject of a designer unspoken. To do otherwise is intellectual cowardice, but then that's something that IDiots have in abundance.

    In my opinion ID can be approached scientifically, but only if you remain strictly within the bounds of nature. If you postulate a highly advanced alien species with the ability to manipulate matter and energy on the scale necessary to bring about our planet and its inhabitants, well, then we can talk. But collecting the evidence might be a little daunting. And you would still face the same objections as theistic based ID, such as the fact that from the way the human body is arranged then they must have been pretty piss-poor designers.

    Dave Bailey

    ReplyDelete
  20. (Unless you were prepared to lie.)

    In my experience, IDiots always are prepared to lie. It's only natural since they start that way. ID is a bad disguise for their creationism as if it were science. Thus, their can't but lie from the get go.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Moran posted:
    "On the other hand, I visited several countries last year including two in Europe (Belgium and France). I missed all the rioting in the streets and the talk of bankruptcy. Guess I must just have been there at the wrong time. Were you there during the riots? When was that?"

    I pointed out the Greece riots.

    Moran posts:
    "I'm aware of the fact that there have been riots in Greece."

    Moran does not feel the need to be consistent from one post to the next. And yet he still wants to be taken seriously.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Moran posted:
    "Are you trying to say that all riots are caused by socialism?"

    Is Moran one slippery character or what?
    He shifts the discussion to ALL riots. As if the discussion is about ALL riots.

    Socialism leads to bankruptcy, and then leads to riots.
    That is the issue.

    Greece, and increasingly more European countries, are following that pattern.

    Moran cannot deny what is happening RIGHT NOW in Europe.

    ReplyDelete
  23. "Do you think that teaching more critical thinking in the public schools including both sides of controversial topics, is a good idea?"

    Moran posted:
    "Yes, I do think it's a good idea."

    So teaching both sides of the controversy about evolution is a good idea.
    Teachers should present the criticisms that have been made about evolution theory.
    Do you agree Dr. Moran?

    ReplyDelete
  24. Larry Moran said...

    "My position is that religion should be kept out of politics."

    I agree. Jean Chrétien maintained that he kept his religion separate from his politics. All politicians should follow this practise.

    This video is very disturbing. The clip of Carolyn Greve with a crucifix around her neck makes it very obvious that, for her at least, religion and politics are “intertwined.”

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous the IDiot asks,

    So teaching both sides of the controversy about evolution is a good idea.
    Teachers should present the criticisms that have been made about evolution theory.
    Do you agree Dr. Moran?


    Yes. As a matter of fact I teach two courses like that. Many of the current scientific controversies in evolution could be usefully introduced in high as long as the teachers are competent. I even think it's a good idea to introduce, and debunk, some of the stupid ideas proposed by the IDiots.

    High school students could learn at lot, for example, by analyzing your comments on this blog and comparing them to real evolutionary facts and theory.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Moran posted:
    "High school students could learn at lot, for example, by analyzing your comments on this blog and comparing them to real evolutionary facts and theory."

    I agree. They could learn a lot.
    Especially from the posts here:
    http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2011/05/junk-jonathan-part-8chapter-5.html?commentPage=2

    What I have posted there shows the complete impossibility of evolution theory based on random point mutations.
    I am certainly hoping you or others will respond to it.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Dr Moran you have agreed that:

    "Teachers should present the criticisms that have been made about evolution theory."

    That sounds like a good idea.
    I am not talking about differences of opinion within evolution theory but criticisms of the theory itself.
    Is that what you are teaching in your two courses?
    Can you give a few examples?

    ReplyDelete
  28. "Socialism leads to bankruptcy, and then leads to riots.
    That is the issue.
    Greece, and increasingly more European countries, are following that pattern.
    Moran cannot deny what is happening RIGHT NOW in Europe."

    For the life of me I cannot understand why people have this irrational liking of socialism. We can see right now in Europe where it leads.

    I know it is favored in the ivory towers of the University. I can only conclude that they are taken with the ideology and can somehow ignore the actual result of that ideology.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Perhaps if socialism had never been tried we might give it the benefit of the doubt.
    But it has been tried. It has been tried in Europe for example.
    And we can see the inevitable result.
    Bankruptcy followed by riots in the streets. HAPPENING NOW.
    It is irrational to not learn from experience.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Looks like Moran has gone quiet about the virtues of socialism.
    It is sort of hard to support socilism when we can see the riots breaking out in countries in Europe.

    Wouldn't it be wonderful if the "socialist" ideology was finally rejected by all rational people?

    ReplyDelete
  31. This sums it up:
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/06/27/the_economic_paralysis_110364-2.html
    "We've arrived at a historical reckoning of the post-World War II welfare state, burdened with aging populations and huge debts."

    Ah, the good old "welfare state".
    When will we ever learn.
    But the "welfare state" is at root based on greed. And there will never be shortage of human greed.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anonymous says,

    Ah, the good old "welfare state".
    When will we ever learn.
    But the "welfare state" is at root based on greed. And there will never be shortage of human greed.


    What's the alternative to the welfare state? Is it an "unwelfare" statte where we let the sick, the elderly, and the unemployed die? Is that what capitalism is all about?

    Why would we choose to live in such a mean state where everyone cares only about themselves and keeping as much of "their" money as possible? Do you think capitalism might have something to do with greed?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Dr. Moran, I am glad you responded. I am of course very familiar with the sort of argument you have presented.

    This can be approached in two ways.
    The first is to point out that when the welfare system breaks down it is the most vulnerable who are hurt the most. So the welfare state does not protect people. With all these welfare states people are suffering. And increasingly suffering from roaming gangs and riots as well. That is the reality of the welfare state.

    Looking at the other side we need to keep in mind the philanthropic impulse in the human spirit.
    Think of the work done by such billionaires as Gates and Buffett (and many others). Think of the United Way. Think of religious based help. ETC ETC

    Socialists like you do not consider the actual world and the actual philanthropic impulses inherent in the human spirit.

    There is so much more to be said about this, but that is a starter.

    P.S. I assume you give to such organizations as the United Way.

    ReplyDelete
  34. For those following this, note how Moran sees this.
    In his mind the only possible alternative to the welfare state is that the sick, the elderly, and the unemployed die.

    Think about how his mind works because it is very instructive (and he is not the only one).
    It only thinks in extremes. It does not think in a rational, realistic way. It only sees through the lens of ideology.

    That is very significant in understanding his ideas about every topic he deals with.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Anonymous said Bankruptcy followed by riots in the streets.

    You're talking about Greece? The financial problems there, and many other places, are a direct fallout from the banking crisis in America almost 3 years ago. America is far from socialist, in fact the entire crisis there was caused by too little regulation over the financial industry. Seems to me that they could use a bit more socialism, not less. The major reason that Canada was affected as badly, and recovered more quickly, was the controls we placed on banks years ago.

    Dave Bailey

    ReplyDelete
  36. anonymous says,

    Socialists like you do not consider the actual world and the actual philanthropic impulses inherent in the human spirit.

    Your argument is a little confusing. Why aren't those unselfish philanthropic impulses working in the USA? There are some pretty bad neighborhoods in the USA where most of the people are unemployed. Are you familiar with that reality? Have you gone out in the evening to walk around those neighborhoods to see how people are getting along?

    But setting that aside, you've convinced me that I should be very, very frightened. Tonight I'm going out to buy a gun and stock up on food and water. I figure it's only a matter of months before the riots start in Canada.

    I urge my friends in Australia and Scandinavia to pay attention as well. Your turn is coming! Anonymous the Capitalist says so.

    We need to learn from the capitalists. The way forward is clear: (1) break the unions, (2) abolish Obamacare, (3) cut back on unemployment insurance, (4) reduce taxes, and (5) allow the pension plans to go bankrupt.

    This is why America is the greatest country in the world.

    ReplyDelete
  37. The way forward is clear: (1) break the unions, (2) abolish Obamacare, (3) cut back on unemployment insurance, (4) reduce taxes, and (5) allow the pension plans to go bankrupt.

    You slipped up on #4 Larry, more detail needed: you reduce taxes on the rich and increase taxes on the poor.

    It's a Republican thing, it's how they roll.

    Dave Bailey

    ReplyDelete
  38. Moran seems to have gone off the deep end. It is hard for him to hear anything that challenges his worldview. He has his fixed ideas and that is that.
    When challenged he becomes sarcastic and irrational.

    And so, even looking at Europe, he still cannot see it for what it is.
    He simply cannot believe that people can work things out for themselves without the help of an overshadowing government.
    He cannot believe that socialism leads to bankruptcy and riots.
    Even when we see it occurring right now.

    ReplyDelete
  39. But setting that aside, you've convinced me that I should be very, very frightened. Tonight I'm going out to buy a gun and stock up on food and water. I figure it's only a matter of months before the riots start in Canada.

    I guess Moran did not see the G20 riots in Toronto and the riots in Vancouver.
    How is it possible to have a discussion with someone like Moran who obtusely ignores the facts - even of what is occurring right in Toronto where he teaches

    ReplyDelete
  40. Moran posted:
    "I urge my friends in Australia and Scandinavia to pay attention as well. Your turn is coming!Anonymous the Capitalist says so."

    For Scandinavian riots, google 'Scandinavian riots"

    For Australia riots, google "Australian riots".

    We even have a new trend "flash mobs" vandalizing stores and viciously beating up people.
    Google "flash mobs".

    ReplyDelete
  41. Notice what Moran has done. At first his (absurd) knock against capitalism was "letting the sick, the elderly, and the unemployed die".
    But notice how he now slyly changes it by saying "There are some pretty bad neighborhoods in the USA where most of the people are unemployed. Are you familiar with that reality? Have you gone out in the evening to walk around those neighborhoods to see how people are getting along?"

    This is the kind of sly shift that Moran does all the time. Shifting from people dying to people having a tough time.
    I have caught him multiple times on this kind of trick.
    Moran, if you have a case put it forward with integrity. Knock off the tricks.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Any present 'riots' (a harsh words for demonstrations) in Greece are against IMF measures.
    Germany and Scandinavia are riot free.
    It would be good for the mental health of ANONYMOUS if he spent a few years in Belgium or Denmark.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Moran had posted:
    "The good news is that American school children are soon going to learn a lot more about the values of socialism."

    I dearly hope so.
    When they are shown what is happening in socialist Europe they will truly obtain an understanding of the inevitable socialist pattern of bankruptcy and riots.

    But I suspect Moran has in mind a distorted, biased from of education for those school children. The kind of biased education socialists would present.

    But notice how sly Moran is. He says they will learn "the values" of socialism.
    He has in mind a whitewashed form of "education" that ignores the actual process and history of what socialism is about and what it leads to.
    He will conflate the human spirit of caring for our neighbour with "socialism" itself. As if they were the same - and pretending that the only way the philanthropic impulse can ever manifest is through government.

    Are people starting to see the slyness that runs throughout all Moran's thinking and through the socialist mind set.

    ReplyDelete
  44. heleen seems to understand that the countries in Europe are socialist and wants to whitewash what is happening there.
    There could be no stronger confirmation of what I am saying.

    But why do people want to pretend about the situation in Europe? Why is it so important to you to cover over the actual truth about socialism and what it leads to?

    ReplyDelete
  45. Here is a link about the "riots" in Greece:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008905/Greece-strikes-June-2011-Thousands-protesters-fresh-anti-cuts-riots.html
    "Riot police fought running battles with hooded youths in Athens today as tens of thousands took the streets against tough anti-austerity measures.
    Parts of the capital were ablaze as youths hurled rocks, bricks and petrol bombs at police who responded with baton charges and tear gas.
    Clouds of smoke were left hanging over the city’s landmarks. Dozens were injured.
    Tonight protesters, taking part in a two-day national strike, were on the streets again.
    Hundreds of terrified tourists ran for safety from cafes and restaurants as youths, many wearing gas masks and scarves covering their faces, rampaged in front of luxury hotels in Syntagma Square .
    Shops, banks, trucks and bins were all set ablaze.
    Five thousand police were patrolling the streets."

    According to heleen, describing these as riots "is a harsh word for demonstrations."

    Socialist "demonstrations" are a marvel, aren't they?

    Let's hope that Moran's school children are introduced to these "socialist values".

    ReplyDelete
  46. Some points:

    The labelling "socialist" or "capitalist" are getting a bit out of hand.

    Regulating what banks can or cannot do isn't socialist by definition. It is just good monetary policy.

    And as to the riots and trouble in Europe: The problem wasn't socialism or capitalism. The problem was the will/ability to balance a budget. No matter if you spent lots and took lots (socialism), or spent less and took less (capitalism), you were ok. If you took little and spent lot, you look like Greece.

    Simple, really.

    As to the NDP: They are trying very hard to cover all bases etc. That was the downfall of the Liberals - it will be the downfall of the NDP too.

    ReplyDelete
  47. The demonstrations in Greece involve many thousands (60000 say Anonymous), and riots are said to be the work of 400 anarchists protesting capitalist measures of a socialist government. The financial situation in Greece is the consequence of many years rule by the conservative party, and it is the socialist party that has to clean up now that it has come into power about a year ago.

    Anonymous' mental health would improve by a few years residence in Denmark or Belgium, and by a more intelligent choice of reading material.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Singular Observer, would you agree that it is the socialists that tend to spend and expand the size of government.
    If you spend less, then you cannot go so deeply into debt.
    Agreed?

    ReplyDelete
  49. Anonymous said...
    "would you agree that it is the socialists that tend to spend and expand the size of government"

    Anonymous had better do some fact checking; he only knows how to spout crude preconceptions, whatever the subject.

    ReplyDelete
  50. heleen likes to refer to "fact-checking" while giving no facts himself/herself.

    It should be noted that a party does not have to call themselves socialist to enact socialist programs.

    ReplyDelete
  51. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/the_wheels_come_off_U4WHvFYsLiFD6E2CZQZDZI
    "Listen carefully to those screams of outrage and sounds of shattering glass you hear wafting from the streets of Athens as rioters "protest" the end of an internationally funded gravy train: This is what happens when an irresponsible government and a lazy, entitled public finally run out of other people's money.
    Welcome to the beginning of the end of the welfare state.

    It no longer matters if some people advocate socialism.
    Reality has the last say.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Anon: Sure - but it needn't be. Case in point: Sweden. Highest forecasted growth percentage in Europe.

    ReplyDelete
  53. @Singular Observer.

    I had posted:
    "If you spend less, then you cannot go so deeply into debt."

    You seem to agree.
    That has nothing to do with Sweden.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Anyone following the riots in the U.K.?
    Gotta love those socialist "demonstrations".
    What does it take for you folks to wake up?

    Perhaps people could google PIIGS.
    That will give you the agenda for future riots.

    Socialism leads to bankruptcy and then riots.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Anonymous says,

    "If you spend less, then you cannot go so deeply into debt."

    I doubt that any intelligent person would agree with such a statement but perhaps we could modify it to: "One way to avoid going into debt is to make sure you spend less than you earn."

    The idea is to recognize that you can also avoid debt by increasing revenue. In the case of national economies you often need to employ a combination of solutions in order to avoid defaulting on your debts.

    If you are going to deal with a mounting debt then there are only a few possibilities ...

    1. Increase revenue, no change in spending
    2. No change in revenue, no change in spending
    3. Decrease revenue, no change in spending
    4. Increase revenue, increase spending
    5. No change in revenue, increase spending
    6. Decrease revenue, increase spending
    7. Increase revenue, decrease spending
    8. No change in revenue, decrease spending
    9. Decrease revenue, decrease spending

    Different countries are trying different options. The United States, for example, has been exploring option #6.

    That's just kindergarten economics. Are you ready for first grade?

    ReplyDelete
  56. It is pointless to talk economics with Moran.
    He has no understanding of the basics of how economics works.
    For example, when you increase taxes you push the job creators to go elsewhere. Certainly whatever you take from them they no longer have for expansion etc.
    Socialists think that the income of the population belongs to the state and that they are entitled to take whatever amount of people's income they wish. Taxpayers generally do not see it that way.

    Socialists should study the story of the golden goose.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Goose

    How about this - we increase the taxes on University professors. The beauty of that idea is that this will avoid having to raise taxes on job creators.
    The University profs can just do what they do now for less.

    ReplyDelete
  57. heleen was touting Denmark.
    Here is some news from that front;

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/danish-committee-approves-governments-controversial-border-control-plans/2011/07/01/AG5eEKtH_story.html
    "Denmark on Friday approved a decision to re-establish permanent customs checkpoints at its borders, removing the last hurdle to a plan aimed at stopping crime and illegal immigration but which has been strongly criticized in Europe as violating visa-free travel rules."

    Ah, the socialist paradise unfolds.
    Next comes restrictions about moving assets out of the country. Eventually comes restrictions on people getting out of the country.

    Here is the pattern:
    Socialism
    Socialist "paradise"
    Bankruptcy
    Riots
    Rise of strong-man
    Restrictions on movement of assets and people
    EQUAL shared misery

    If people think I am kidding, they really do not know history.

    Socialism looks good for a while as the state lives on theft and borrowing. (Theft from those with assets and theft from future generations, through borrowing.)

    Then comes the reckoning.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous says,

    It is pointless to talk economics with Moran.
    He has no understanding of the basics of how economics works.


    One thing is very clear ... Anonymous, the capitalist, is not ready to graduate from kindergarten.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Moran thinks that by making statements that are exactly opposite to the truth that he is somehow in the clear.

    But since Moran has even proven to be blind to riots in Toronto and blind to the failure of socialist Europe, then there is not much hope for him.

    It is depressing that Moran turns any discussion into a personal argument and insults.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Socialism looks good for a while as the state lives on theft and borrowing. (Theft from those with assets and theft from future generations, through borrowing.)

    Then comes the reckoning.

    Socialists take credit for the good times during the theft period and then deny that the reckoning has anything to do with them.

    ReplyDelete
  61. anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    But since Moran has even proven to be blind to riots in Toronto ...

    I'm not "blind to the riots in Toronto" or Vancouver any more than I'm blind to the riots in Seattle last February or at the WTO meeting in 1999. I'm well aware of the Pittsburgh Superbowl riots in 2006 and 2009.

    I'm not blind to the much more serious riots that have occurred in the USA over the past few decades where people died. Many of them were race riots or rioting by the poor and disadvantaged. The rioting in New Orleans after Katrina was especially disturbing, don't you agree?

    What I am "blind" to is the connection between these riots and socialism.

    .. and blind to the failure of socialist Europe, then there is not much hope for him.

    Oh, and that. I seem to have missed the fact that socialist Europe is a failure. I guess I've just been looking in all the wrong places during the two months that I've spend there recently.

    BTW, anonymous the capitalist, do you live in Europe? Where?

    ReplyDelete
  62. Moran posted:
    "Oh, and that. I seem to have missed the fact that socialist Europe is a failure. I guess I've just been looking in all the wrong places during the two months that I've spend there recently."

    Now Moran is pretending not to even see the riots in Greece and starting in other countries such as Spain.

    What is the point of even talking with someone who can be so blind to what is going on - or pretend to be so blind to it.
    As I said Socialists take credit for the good times during the theft period and then deny that the reckoning has anything to do with them.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Boy that Moran is wily but a little forgetful.
    He posted:
    "I'm not blind to the much more serious riots that have occurred in the USA over the past few decades where people died. Many of them were race riots or rioting by the poor and disadvantaged. The rioting in New Orleans after Katrina was especially disturbing, don't you agree?
    What I am "blind" to is the connection between these riots and socialism."

    I did not say that all riots stem from socialism. In fact he tried this trick already and I called him on it.
    Moran, you are starting to look a little silly with these tricks and getting caught time and time again.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Anonymous, the capitalist says,

    I guess Moran did not see the G20 riots in Toronto and the riots in Vancouver.
    How is it possible to have a discussion with someone like Moran who obtusely ignores the facts - even of what is occurring right in Toronto where he teaches.


    Anonymous, the capitalist says,

    Moran does not feel the need to be consistent from one post to the next. And yet he still wants to be taken seriously.

    Anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    Is Moran one slippery character or what?
    He shifts the discussion to ALL riots. As if the discussion is about ALL riots.


    Anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    But since Moran has even proven to be blind to riots in Toronto and blind to the failure of socialist Europe, then there is not much hope for him.

    Anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    I did not say that all riots stem from socialism. In fact he tried this trick already and I called him on it.
    Moran, you are starting to look a little silly with these tricks and getting caught time and time again.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anonymous, the capitalist says,

    I guess Moran did not see the G20 riots in Toronto and the riots in Vancouver.
    How is it possible to have a discussion with someone like Moran who obtusely ignores the facts - even of what is occurring right in Toronto where he teaches.


    Anonymous, the capitalist says,

    Moran does not feel the need to be consistent from one post to the next. And yet he still wants to be taken seriously.

    Anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    Is Moran one slippery character or what?
    He shifts the discussion to ALL riots. As if the discussion is about ALL riots.


    Anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    But since Moran has even proven to be blind to riots in Toronto and blind to the failure of socialist Europe, then there is not much hope for him.

    Anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    I did not say that all riots stem from socialism. In fact he tried this trick already and I called him on it.
    Moran, you are starting to look a little silly with these tricks and getting caught time and time again.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Anonymous said:
    Anyone following the riots in the U.K.?
    Gotta love those socialist "demonstrations".
    What does it take for you folks to wake up?

    Perhaps people could google PIIGS.
    That will give you the agenda for future riots.

    Socialism leads to bankruptcy and then riots.


    British football hooligans do better at rioting than British teachers demonstrating against pension cuts.

    The bankruptcy afflicting the UK is a consequence of the banking crisis brought about by high-risk venture capitalism and hedge fund tactics. Haven't you noticed? Living in capitalist cloud cuckoo land? What does it take for you Anonymous folks to wake up and see facts?

    ReplyDelete
  67. Moran has listed my responses to his attempts to trick us.

    I suppose he is not used to people calling him on these sorts of things.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Socialism itself leads to bankruptcy and riots etc.
    There is always some excuse that socialists try to give - as if to say it has nothing to do with them.

    It is also important to notice that capitalist states depressingly fall into the trap and the politicians enact socialist ideas that eventually break down.
    In the case of the U.S. those socialist (welfare state) ideas are going to bring the whole thing down.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Sweden debt clock:
    http://www.weidemyr.com/debt/index-en.shtml

    U.S. debt clock:
    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

    Canada debt clock:
    http://www.debtclock.ca/

    The phrase "we are all socialists now" can be restated as "we are all in big debt now".

    ReplyDelete
  70. Socialists take credit for the good times during the theft period and then deny that the reckoning has anything to do with them.

    And the population goes along with the con game because of greed. People pretend to themselves that somehow things are different now and that they can get something for nothing. (While overlooking the theft).

    That is why socialism rears its ugly head again and again, even though it has been shown to be an immoral and violent failure whenever it has been tried.

    ReplyDelete
  71. I had a conversation with a doctor from Germany that was vising.
    He confirmed that Europe is socialist, which of course I already knew.
    But he told me something I did not know.
    He talked about how well Germany is doing. And he said that was because of the euro currency. And how that enabled Germany to sell products to Greece etc.
    Sounds like a success story. But as we analyzed it I saw the con game.
    European banks and countries have loaned Greece huge amounts (which of course we know).
    And they did that on the understanding that if Greece went belly up that the EU would bail them out. (Which they are doing). In other words that EU taxpayers (Eg. GERMAN taxpayers) would bail them out.

    So it is fundamentally a con game. Germany APPEARS to be doing well because the EU loaned Greece (and other EU countries) money so that they could buy German products. (The doctor confirmed this.) But those loans cannot be repaid and eventually future German taxpayers will have to make up the funds.
    So this is a perfect example of Germany (and other wealthier EU countries) racking up a debt superstitiously that will have to be paid by future generations.

    Socialism is based on theft. In this case, it is theft from future generations.

    ReplyDelete
  72. anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    The first is to point out that when the welfare system breaks down it is the most vulnerable who are hurt the most. So the welfare state does not protect people. With all these welfare states people are suffering. And increasingly suffering from roaming gangs and riots as well. That is the reality of the welfare state.

    anonymous, th capitalist, says,

    Take a look at Europe. They are bankrupt.
    That is where socialism leads you.
    They have run out of spending other people's money.

    The socialist idea has been tried. Bankruptcy follows. And rioting in the street follows that. (It has already begun)


    anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    Socialism itself leads to bankruptcy and riots etc.
    There is always some excuse that socialists try to give - as if to say it has nothing to do with them.


    anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    That is why socialism rears its ugly head again and again, even though it has been shown to be an immoral and violent failure whenever it has been tried.

    anonymous, the capitalist says (not realizing the irony),

    Moran seems to have gone off the deep end. It is hard for him to hear anything that challenges his worldview. He has his fixed ideas and that is that.

    ReplyDelete
  73. I presented the situation in Greece based on the discussion I had with the visiting German doctor.
    Here is what is interesting.
    We see the same pattern in the United States.
    China (and other countries) have been loaning money to the U.S. government. And the U.S government has doled out that money allowing the population to live beyond their means.
    A huge part of that living beyond their means has been what are called "entitlement programs". People get out way more than they put in.

    And now the reckoning has come.
    That is the fundamental behind what we see in the U.S. debt crisis.

    In this case, socialism/theftism, is theft against the next generations.

    ReplyDelete
  74. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/ponzi_socialism_N5xwI2ZD0bi10DOp9wsARM
    "I have seen the future, and it doesn't work.
    Don't get me wrong: New Year's in beautiful Barcelona was a blast. Spain is a great vacation spot, with good food and gorgeous women -- but nobody seems to be working outside the tourist areas.
    The reason is pretty simple: The Bernie Madoff-like Ponzi scheme of big government has been squeezing the productive class and redistributing its tax dollars and innovation to everyone else for years -- and is finally reaching its boiling point.
    Spain -- like Portugal, Italy and, of course, Greece -- offers the lofty cradle-to-grave entitlements that only a Ponzi-schemer like Madoff could love: Big government stays big by buying the votes of those who feast off free health care and guaranteed pensions. But the system works only as long as enough productive people can keep working and paying the high taxes to keep the benefits rolling.
    What happens when they can't find jobs -- because businesses can't afford to stay open because of high taxes? Well, the most productive move elsewhere to find better-paying jobs (as relatives of mine have left the Mezzogiorno region of southern Italy for generations).
    Across Europe, private-sector jobs are disappearing, while governments face imploding budgets, debt defaults and social unrest.
    Unless the new Congress can change things quickly, the same will most certainly happen here in America."


    Eventually reality has the final say.

    ReplyDelete
  75. It looks like the socialist proponents have fallen quiet.

    I wonder if some people may have seen a little deeper into what socialism is really all about.

    Socialism is based on theft and greed.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Anonymous said:
    It looks like the socialist proponents have fallen quiet

    The defenders of informed thought had more sensible things to do over the weekend than pay attention to boring Anonymous.

    Socialism is based on theft and greed
    Got confused between socialism and capitalism? Can't even get that straight?

    ReplyDelete
  77. heleen is implying that socialism is not based on theft and greed. If he/she wants to make that assertion he/she will have to deal with the evidence I have presented.

    My goal is to have people open their eyes and take a look at what socialism is really all about. And how it actually operates.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Anonymous has not presented any evidence, other than providing evidence for his lack of understandig and lack of knowledge. Anonymous might not realize what evidence actually is.

    ReplyDelete
  79. It looks like heleen has nothing to contribute and falls back on insults.

    There is not much that one can say to someone who is deeply in denial about the facts (like the situation in Europe) that are staring them in the face.

    ReplyDelete
  80. anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    There is not much that one can say to someone who is deeply in denial about the facts ...

    I agree.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Here is the rest of the sentence that Moran left out:
    "There is not much that one can say to someone who is deeply in denial about the facts (like the situation in Europe) that are staring them in the face."

    This does not count as another Moran trick because my post is directly above for all to see.
    It just counts as another Moran foolishness.
    Why Moran is so smug in his lack of knowledge is a mystery. But no doubt he will have some smug response.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Larry Moran said:
    "anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    There is not much that one can say to someone who is deeply in denial about the facts ...

    I agree."

    I agree.

    ReplyDelete
  83. My goal is to have people open their eyes and take a look at what socialism is really all about. And how it actually operates.

    Many socialists are not willing to look at the reality of socialism.
    We live in a very instructive time, since we are seeing the day of reckoning.
    We have passed through the theft stage and now see the result of socialism.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Why is anonymous too cowardly to post his/her real name?

    Dave Bailey

    ReplyDelete
  85. Dave Bailey asks,

    Why is anonymous too cowardly to post his/her real name?

    I assume this is a rhetorical question? If you were an IDiot like anonymous would you want your identity to be known? Your friends and relatives would be so embarrassed.

    ReplyDelete
  86. When people do not wish to discuss an issue, such as the reality of socialism, they find other things to talk about. Along with ad hominem attacks.

    Does anyone see how Europe is currently displaying the socialist pattern?
    Or will people continue to try to find ways to not face up to it?

    ReplyDelete
  87. Larry asks: "I assume this is a rhetorical question?"

    Yeah, I guess it was. I assumed, correctly, that Anonymous would still hide.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Anonymous said...

    Along with ad hominem attacks.

    Technically speaking, I don't think you can "ad hominem"* an anonymous troll.

    * It's not actually a verb either.

    ReplyDelete
  89. By the way, we all know why you want me to give my name. It is because you will then be able to attack me personally by name.
    And that is how you like to structure these discussions - make them into personal attacks.
    That is why you are so keen to find out my name.

    Why does my name enter into the actual facts and evidence and logic of the discussion? My name does not enter into it.
    So your almost desperate desire to know my name is obviously not to understand the facts better. It is to be able to make your attacks even more personal.
    That is truly unscientific. And sad.

    ReplyDelete
  90. @anonymous By the way, we all know why you want me to give my name.

    Actually, the less I know about you, the better.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Anonymous said "By the way, we all know why you want me to give my name. It is because you will then be able to attack me personally by name." Yes, of course, because as we all know it's impossible to ad hom you unless we have your proper name, birth certificate, Social Insurance Number, home address, phone number, and a DNA analysis. We can't say 'Anonymous is a dickhead', and we can't just make up a name and then say 'Fred Nurk is a smelly son of a bitch who lusts after his own mother'. No, not knowing who you are prevents all that.

    So I'll just stick to calling you a coward. Feel better now?

    Dave Bailey

    ReplyDelete
  92. anonymous, the capitalist, says,

    By the way, we all know why you want me to give my name.

    Most of us do but I'm not sure YOU do.

    Many people post comments anonymously. We're never sure if different comments come from the same person or not. I've made up the term "anonymous the capitalist" to identify you from the others but I'm only guessing when I attribute different anonymous comments to the same person.

    I have no idea whether you are the same person as "anonymous, the IDiot" on another thread. I suspect so since the two of you share a number of characteristics (stupidity being the most obvious one).

    You could solve this problem by using a pseudonym that reflects your position. How about "No Ears" to reflect the fact that you never listen?

    The second reason has been alluded to by others. Normally in the skeptical community we stand up for what we believe and we don't hide behind anonymity. That's considered cowardly.

    It's true that if you identify yourself then you might be subjected to personal attacks of the sort you directed against me when you said,

    Perhaps it is because you live in the cocoon of the tenured University world that you are so out of touch with the world we actually live in.

    and

    Are you at all familiar with what is going on in Greece for example? Perhaps you do not follow the news in that nice University cocoon.

    and

    How about this - we increase the taxes on University professors. The beauty of that idea is that this will avoid having to raise taxes on job creators.
    The University profs can just do what they do now for less.


    and

    But since Moran has even proven to be blind to riots in Toronto and blind to the failure of socialist Europe, then there is not much hope for him.

    It is depressing that Moran turns any discussion into a personal argument and insults.


    I understand your reluctance to reveal your identity. It's typical of cowards that they can dish it out but can't take it.

    ReplyDelete
  93. We can see from The Rat's post the sort of disgusting attack folks here think is quite acceptable.

    It is only common sense not to present any identifying info in a place like this.

    That is all I intend to say on this.

    All this is a distraction since people here simply wish to distract from the reality of socialism that I have shown. Why folks want to defend socialism in the face of the evidence we are seeing across the world is a mystery.

    ReplyDelete
  94. @No Ears That is all I intend to say on this.

    I have my doubts.

    ReplyDelete
  95. It does not matter whether Anonymous gives his real name or not: the opinions expressed would be far removed from reality in either case.
    The point is that it would be convenient to readers of this blog to know whether 'Anonymous the Capitalist' and 'Anonymous the IDiot' are the same person. If so, it would decrease the number of trolls by 50%.

    ReplyDelete
  96. You're correct heleen, it wouldn't change things. But at the risk of being labeled 'old fashioned' I see it as a simple courtesy. I hang out on a lot of different boards devoted to different subjects, and on most I am just The Rat. But when I make a post in a thread that is controversial, and especially if I make a comment that could ramp the controversy up even more, I try to remember to affix my real name to the bottom of the post. It doesn't make me courageous, but it prevents me from appearing to be a coward.

    Anonymous probably suffers from something I call 'keyboard bravado', an affliction which many of us fall prey to during our initial forays into cyberspace. We feel safe in our chairs in front of the screen, secure in the knowledge that a fist will not appear from it and give us a bloody nose. As a result we will say the most outrageous thing, things that we would never say in a normal social setting. I've been guilty of it in the past, hopefully that phase of my life is over.

    The courtesy extends to little things that most would not even think about. For instance, you spell your name in your posts with a lower case 'h' rather than capitalizing it, while I doubt you would write it that way on any official document. But since that is the way you choose to spell it then I would follow that convention in any web communication, even if it appears at the beginning of a sentence. Common courtesy, that is all. Anonymous has yet to learn such things.

    Dave Bailey

    ReplyDelete
  97. heleen is implying that socialism is not based on theft and greed. If he/she wants to make that assertion he/she will have to deal with the evidence I have presented.

    My goal is to have people open their eyes and take a look at what socialism is really all about. And how it actually operates.

    ReplyDelete
  98. @The Rat
    The 'h' in 'heleen' is a quirk of using a Gmailaccount to leave a comment. Even if I type 'H' it comes out as 'h'.

    ReplyDelete