This month's reader's Digest has a couple of articles on Alcoholics Anonymous. The gist of the articles is that the famous 12 steps really don't work all that well. Apparently, there's no data to support the claim that Alcoholics Anonymous is successful at getting people to stop drinking.
I had no idea what these 12 steps were until they were published in the articles I read yesterday. For those of you who don't know, here they are [Alcoholics Anonymous]. I'm not surprised that this isn't a magic bullet but I am surprised at how religious AA must be. They must think that most alcoholics are Christians.
THE TWELVE STEPS
OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
- We admitted we were powerless over alcohol ﾗ that our lives had become unmanageable.
- Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
- Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
- Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
- Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
- Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
- Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
- Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
- Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
- Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
- Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
- Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
104 comments :
The easiest way to get rid of one addiction is to replace it with another; in the case of AA, alcoholism is easily replaced with religion. The fact that religion is addictive is the main reason why God gets credited so frequently with curing substance addictions.
What, you've never heard the phrase "God! I need a drink!"?
Just this afternoon I was reading a journal article that said completing AA was less common for non-religious people than for religious people. I couldn't figure out why that would be the case. Suddenly it has become all too clear.
I refer all those who are interested in Penn and Teller's "Bullshit" episode on 12 step programs.
AA is Bullshit.
If AA is such a complete failure, then why is it still around?
Yep, it's all very religious... I remember being subjected to assemblies in high school about jail and criminal reform and every convict they had who told his story made it a point to talk about becoming born again while in prison. I think that more than anything else made me want to stay out of jail. :-)
AA is still around because people believe anecdotal evidence, they don't insist on statistical evidence, and AA doesn't publish their success rates. The numbers that have leaked out indicate that AA is only as successful as quitting cold turkey without AA.
There are atheists who attend AA, but they have to hold their noses against the god stuff. San Francisco (of course) has several Agnostic AA meetings where people don't resort to the "higher power" idea. There is a great deal of pressure put on people in Alcoholics Anonymous to conform to the Christian practices and concepts on which it was founded. Some members even go so far as to say that people who don't accept the 12-steps are merely "dry drunks", and will surely relapse. Pretty disgusting, really.
nowoo writes, "AA is only as successful as quitting cold turkey without AA"
What's your point? Do you have a source for *any* good numbers on addiction program success rates?
Clearly AA works from some people, that much is clear, and it charges nothing for its services. It also welcomes atheists (who are free to ignore the minimal God language or reinterpret it as they wish), and it quite pointedly does not proselytize. There's nothing but good there.
"I refer all those who are interested in Penn and Teller's "Bullshit" episode on 12 step programs."
Yes, previously to watching that I thought it was a neutral program for countering alcoholism which I was in favor for.
But it turns out it is a stealth religious program. Probably with one motivation being to prey on weak people to get converts, why else the religious message instead of relying entirely on building good habits and a social support system.
I was frankly pissed at the time, and not from booze, I tell ya'.
"The numbers that have leaked out indicate that AA is only as successful as quitting cold turkey without AA."
And suppressing the abysmal statistics of not providing any help whatsoever along the lines I presumed.
Guess one should be thankful that they don't destroy the default success rate in their misguided attempts, but that doesn't prevent it from being a disgusting organization. Good thing that the facts are out.
Hmm, seeing scientists citing Reader's Digest and Penn & Teller to discredit an organization is....
Well, you know what it is.
Torbjörn:
That is both unfair and beneath you. AA is many things, not all of them good but the last thing it is is an attempt to get converts.
It is probably the closest thing to an anarchy that has or will ever exist. It is run totally from the bottom up and literally has no rules (even the 12 Steps cannot be "enforced"). Anyone who says they are an alcholic is a member in good standing free to attend any meeting.
AA is an example of what humans do when they are in trouble: it is a bunch of people in pain huddling together for what mutual support they can get and give. As in any human group, there will be good support and there will be bad. But almost none of it comes with an ulterior motive.
AA doesn't cure alcoholism but, then again, no one else has done any better. The best evidence is that people who escape addiction grow out of it somehow. It's called "maturing out." AA may help some people live long enough to do that.
I am always amazed that anyone could possibly say anything negative about AA. This program has a success rate unparalleled in successful recovery, it costs nothing and MILLIONS world wide swear by it.
Why rain on the parade???
"seeing scientists citing Reader's Digest and Penn & Teller to discredit an organization is...."
Seeing scientists not checking the sources.
"That is both unfair and beneath you."
I'm honored that not everyone thinks the worst of me. :-)
It's quite clear it isn't neutral, from the quotes. That it acts as a stealth religious program, whether it is intended or not, is also clear.
"This program has a success rate unparalleled in successful recovery"
But "The numbers that have leaked out indicate that AA is only as successful as quitting cold turkey without AA." It isn't better than the default alternative, and they don't want this exposed.
Judging from several JREF posts, AA is religious in nigh the same way the Unitarian Universalists are religious:
From poster Scott Haley, quoted Wikipedia:
"A few alcoholics who arrive at A.A. without belief in God use the group itself as their "Higher Power." One such alcoholic defined 'GOD' as 'Group Of Drunks' until he was able to discover a spiritual concept of god which worked for him."
From poster Luke T., confirming Haley with some firsthand experience:
"My sponsor in Virginia was one of the those people who uses 'Group Of Drunks' in place of GOD."
From Luke T. again:
"The show was an attempt to paint A.A. as a religious cult. So Penn stands outside the building where the A.A. HQ is located and stresses the word 'CHURCH' in the name of the building. The name of the building is the Interchurch Group. What Penn doesn't tell you is that A.A. does not own the building. They rent space in it.
"Penn could have stood outside an Episcopal Church where an A.A. meeting is held and tried to make the implication that A.A. owns the Episcopal Church, but he knows the viewer isn't that ignorant. Or he could have stood outside a Presybterian Church where an A.A. meeting is held and tried to sell the idea that A.A. owns the Presbyterian Church. But he knows the viewer isn't that ignorant. So instead, he goes someplace that he knows the viewer is completely ignorant of and tries to tell the viewer that A.A. is a 'Church.' Get it?"
AA is a cult.Its not a mainstream religion.I have done extensive research and have gone into great detail in my blog about AA.It is religious,but its not christian.
AA has almost destroyed my marriage.
Claude makes some valid points. For example, those who purport to label and categorize A.A. ought first to give evidence that they know who belongs to A.A., where it came from, what it was in the beginning, how many varieties there are today, and how it had at least 5 phases before it finally settled down in 1955 to Bill's new version. Details can be found in The James Club and The Original A.A. Program's Absolute Essentials; Real Twelve Step Fellowship History; and The Conversion of Bill W. See for more details: http://www.dickb.com/titles.shtml
God Bless, Dick B.
PS: For those who watched Penn and Teller, their spoof correctly identified many AAs who make the absurd statement that your higher power can be a rock. And who wants to seek recovery by praying to a rock. Nobody. Not if sanity has finally returned.
At long last the cracks are appearing in the AA stranglehold monopoly on addiction support options. Jack Trimpey,Stanton Peele, Herbert Fingarette, James Christopher, Martin Nicholaus, Jeffrey Schaler, Ken Ragge, C Bufe to name a few who have written books highly critical of AA are sources for anyone actually displaying an "open mind" as mouthed by the AA idealogues, but are certainly not publicized in the "fellowship".
AA is not about religion, it is about spirituallity. People are generally asked to kindly leave their religion at the door (ie. please do not discuss your religious views inside a meeting). Any one who attends a decent meeting knows that. People who criticize the program without getting all the facts is just demonstrating their own ignorance.
As long as you read it, no matter what you think now, when you realize you have screwed-up your life with alcohol those people will be there for you. No strings, no religion, no fees, no retreats. The stories in THEIR Big Book are real, not parables. And now for something incitable;
AA is not a cult. But what would you call a bunch of people that get together to worship one guy, burn candles, have rituals and icons? Christians or cultists? Oh, yeah, and spend millions of $$ a year as missionaries to convert heathens around the world.
I believe in God, but I don't hold organized religion against him.
The 12 Steps Down To Hell
I imagine 12 Step recovery programs are a slow slide into the jaws of Satan. I was involved with this evil “satanic cult” [AA] for over 30 years but was saved through the power of Jesus Christ. He directed me to a therapist who was into “real” recovery, not the mind destroying, soul destroying, cult, which is AA. I have met two Steppers recently & I imagine they are completely devoid of any emotion or insight. I feel pain because both these men are decent human beings but AA has destroyed their individuality & they have no idea how to relate apart from expounding AA propaganda. I imagine Hell to be a continuous flow of AA meetings without any light at the end of the tunnel because one never recovers'. I beg you people who are in 12 Step programs, to get out before it is too late.
How does one recover when one is handing one’s power over to AA. The 12 Steps were written out of Wilson’s head, he certainly didn’t get his guidance from the Bible. I imagine he was an agent of Satan & he & Smith’s “cult religion” has filled millions of Steppers with their anti - Christ propaganda.
Step Three of AA is "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him." While many in the Oxford Group placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, there was much leeway given. Shoemaker, a leader of the Oxford Group, says, "The true meaning of faith is self-surrender to God." He further explains:
Surrender to whatever you know about Him, or believe must be the truth about Him. Surrender to Him, if necessary, in total ignorance of Him. Far more important that you touch Him than that you understand Him at first. Put yourself in His hands. Whatever He is, as William James said, He is more ideal than we are. Make the leap. Give yourself to Him.
Aside from capitalizing the "H," which Christians do to refer to the God of the Bible, "Him" could refer to any god of one’s own making [bedpan].
Can you see what is happening to you? Ask Jesus to take control of your lives, read the Bible & instead of 12 Step groups, go to Church. Burn your Big Book or use it as toilet paper. Can you see the difference: With The 12 Steps, you never recover but with John 3:16 you are guaranteed Eternal Salvation. The “ball is in your court”
Peace Be With You
Patrick
DETESTABLE NECROMANCER
You know, the message the 12 Step Paradigm tells us that we are all just powerless over our addictions, meaningless specks of offal in an endless ocean of space and matter where hydrogen atoms and bacteria of unexplained origin can turn into god as
you understand him!! Oooo! It’s so exciting and uplifting to be regularly assured by Steppers in all their ineffable knowledge and function is just an accumulation of 1st Century Christianity Buchmanism & Nihilism. Oooo! It’s heart-warming, I’ll tell ya. We owe these "messengers" so terribly much that it is difficult to put into words... We can talk to dead people & consult spiritists.
9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifice his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God [Deuteronomy 18: 9-13]
Wilson was a “detestable necromancer” who talked to dead people & consulted spiritists. He was “an angel of light” and if you Steppers want what he had, keep going to 12 Step meetings & end up as zombies. I beg of you to see the True Light [John 3: 16] & have Eternal Life, not death [12 Steps].
Peace Be With You
Patrick
the fact that AA and going cold turkey have the same success rate doesn't say anything--because guess what--the people who are successful in AA have already TRIED going cold turkey and found that it didn't work-- if someone could quit by just not drinking then why would they want to be part of something that involves effort like aa? So you're not comparing the same group of people--AA works for the WORST CASES of alcoholism people who have tried quitting cold turkey EVERY DAY FOR YEARS like myself I tried to quit drinking EVERY DAY for 5 years and EVERY DAY i got drunk until I found my way to AA I have been sober now for over 18 months for the first time since I was 12 years old thanks to AA!
Re; ANONYMOUS:
the fact that AA and going cold turkey have the same success rate doesn't say anything
Greetings Anonymous
You were the one who picked up the first drink. How does AA keep one sober? I imagine you have handed your will over to the CULT and you are staying sober, through fear. Quite a few people stop drinking through SPONTANEOUS REMISSION and then give AA the credit. The only way you will stay SOBER as opposed to being DRY, is to get down on your knees and ask Jesus to forgive you your sins. You are not an alcoholic, but a sinner, like me. If you hang around AA, your brain will eventually be altered and you will end up a SHIFT SHAPING REPTILE [Bill & Bob clone]. There is only one-way to Salvation and that is through John 3: 16. What do you want ANONYMOUS (is that your real name) - SALVATION or SOBRIETY?
Peace Be With You
Patrick
Our Resident Loon wrote:
...your brain will eventually be altered and you will end up a SHIFT SHAPING REPTILE...
A shape-shifting reptile? Like Odo on ST:DS9? Cool!
AA can do that for me? I've never been an alcoholic -- do think they'll let me in anyway? I'd love to learn how to become a shape-shifting reptile.
" imagine 12 Step recovery programs are a slow slide into the jaws of Satan. I was involved with this evil “satanic cult” [AA] for over 30 years but was saved through the power of Jesus Christ. He directed me to a therapist who was into “real” recovery, not the mind destroying, soul destroying, cult, which is AA.
How does one recover when one is handing one’s power over to AA. "
you've got to be kidding right? you say you were in the program for 30 years? you don't "give your power to the group(AA)".....the 12 steps are designed to get you connected to GOD....the God of your understanding, etc. etc. etc. i'm sorry it took you 30 years to find Jesus Christ....if you had worked the steps(12 Steps of AA) you could have been connected to him within weeks...but it takes what it takes.....
you've got to be kidding right? you say you were in the program for 30 years? you don't "give your power to the group(AA
I never joke about JESUS CHRIST, Miz Bond (ANONYMOUS)!! The 12 steps are designed to fill you with DEMONS (Satan’s messengers). Re: 3rd STEP: If I give my will to a higher power, how can I have the will to continue to control my will? And if I don’t have the will to control my will, and can’t control my will any longer, then how can I continue to place my will in the care of my higher power? What’s to stop me from accidentally “taking my will back’ without meaning to do so. Read John 3: 16!! You are obviously brainwashed Miz Bond (ANONYMOUS). You only have to look at the life of Wilson (he was a psychopath). Are you a psychopath, Miz Bond (ANONYMOUS) or just a TERRIFIED “Little Child” who wants his/her Mummy [AA]? Basically, AA has given you a license to kill – YOURSELF!!
THE SACRED BULL
I imagine 12 STEPPERS have sold their souls to the devil. Fortunately, I was saved through the power of Jesus Christ, but for many years had been exposed to the evil “satanic cult” (Alcoholics Anonymous) Wilson (AA) has prostituted himself & deluded many thousands (12 Step Groups) by worshipping the god Moloch (Ba’al the Sacred Bull). It all started with his (Wilson) “drug induced hallucination”….
Here are references to seances and other psychic events….
Bill would…”get” these things …long sentences, word by word would come through….” (22)
, he asked for guidance….The words began tumbling out with astonishing speed….(23)
So A.A.’s 12 Steps were actually received verbatim from the demonic world. It is not surprising, then, that the effect of A.A. upon many of its members is to lead them into occult involvement. In 1958, Wilson wrote to Sam Shoemaker,
Throughout A.A., we find a large amount of psychic phenomena, nearly all of it spontaneous. Alcoholic after alcoholic tells me of such experiences… run nearly the full gamut of everything we see in the books.
In addition to my original mystical experience, I’ve had a lot of such phenomenalism myself.(24)
Wilson’s “original mystical experience” was his alleged “conversion” –a classic occult encounter: “Suddenly the room lit up with a great white light. I was caught up into an ecstasy…it burst upon me that I was a free man…a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself, ‘So this is the God of the preachers! ‘ A great peace stole over me….”(25)
This was not the “God of the preachers” but the one who transforms himself “into an angel of light” (2 Cor 1l:l4)-a light that often transforms those involved in the occult. The experience was so profound that Wilson never touched alcohol again. Satan would he more than willing to deliver a man from alcoholism in this life if thereby he could ensnare him for eternity and inspire him to lead millions to the same destruction!
Wilson joined the Oxford Group and regularly attended its meetings at Calvary Church (NY), pastored by Episcopalian Sam Shoemaker. Shoemaker urged his hearers to “accept God however they might conceive of him….”(26) Here was the origin of Step 3’s “God as we understood him.” God does not respond to those who call upon false gods. Jesus said, “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (Jn 17:3). God’s judgment comes upon them “that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Thes 1:8).
I will set my face against that man & his family & will cut off from their people both him & all who follow him in prostituting themselves to MolechI will set my face against the person who turns to mediums & spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, & I will cut him off from his people. (Leviticus 20: 5, 6)
Moloch the God Ba’al, the Sacred Bull, was widely worshipped in the ancient Near East and wherever Carthaginian culture extended. Baal Moloch was conceived under the form of a calf or an ox or depicted as a man with the head of a bull.
Hadad, Baal or simply the King identified the god within his cult. The name Moloch is not the name he was known by among his worshippers, but a HebrewMoloch (in the Septuagint Greek translation of the Old Testament), or Molech (Hebrew), is no different than the word Melech or king, transformed by interposing the vowels of bosheth or ’shameful thing’. translation. The written form.
He is sometimes also called Milcom in the Old Testament.
I beg you Steppers to to get out while you can (12 Step) or end up as “Bull Headed”, Steppers!!
Peace Be With You
Micky
CANCEROUS GROWTH
I imagine AA to be a cancerous growth in our society. I'm a recovered alcoholic who has been sober for over 22 years. I've seen this "cult" virtually destroy people where they become these Bill & Bob zombies devoid of any emotion. I imagine most of the Steppers are not dealing with their core issues and become addicted to the "droning Bill & Bob heads" who pop up and expel meaningless diatribe from their mouths. Alcoholism is the only "disease" one doesn't recover from & one is continually confessing ones non - existent sins, which intensify the guilt and fear when one is not at a meeting (indoctrination session). I imagine AA meetings numb and shutdown the critical thinking section of ones brain. I know a guy who has been sober for over 30 years and I imagine him to be quite mad - he doesn't even know what he's feeling most of the time apart from feeling depressed. I imagine AA to be the road to hell and that it's anti - Christ and the Steppers sell their souls to the "cult", because they are too terrified to face their “demons” & recover their true selves. That "inner child" who is waiting to be freed is slowly pushed down until it disappears into oblivion. That "child" is God! "Unless you become like little children...." "The kingdom of God is within you!" I hear things like; "I need to do the Steps!" "I need more meetings!" "I had cancer or my wife died or I lost my job!" "But! Guess what! I didn't pick up a drink". They might as well say; "I fell of my chair but I didn’t pick up a drink”! "Meaningless”! Why? Because one is not expressing ones feelings! Ones process is all about feelings! How does one recover if one doesn’t feel ones pain, fear, & shame & understand that these feelings, especially if they are overwhelming; are feelings, from ones childhood. All AA does is suppress these feelings until one ends up a semi - depressed zombie like the lunatic who has been sober for over 30 years. Can you see how dangerous this "cult" is? A madman, Bill Wilson, started it and if you want to end up like him, keep going to meetings. The sure way to insanity is "Meetings!" "Meetings!" "Meetings!"
Peace Be With You
Micky
A DOZEN STEPS
Ah Yes! The Imposition Of One’s Will
By Mark | Related entries in Opinion
We speak a great deal in AA to the practice of self-will versus God’s Will.
This is only my personal opinion, but I can tell you that this is one asylum the inmates aren’t about to run lmao… so -
I’d like you all to welcome Micky. Micky has made three comments here today;
Micky has visited before with much the same type of talk. Folks, in the spirit of what God has given me, i.e. an immeasurable amount of gratitude, please let us view Micky’s comments in a positive light. I would seriously suggest that none of us attempt to get into a direct confrontation with Micky.
[Edit: I’m sorry folks. I couldn’t resist. I have to stop. Know that I don’t speak for AA but only for me okay? I’m just not quite as “recovered” as others.]
Micky is entitled to Micky’s opinion!
Micky, my personal thoughts to you are these;
It feels very obvious to me who your mentor is from the way you speak. I know of him and his program. We practice AA here. We are all grateful for a new life and sobriety that we thought we’d never know.
Your attempt to provoke us, force your will on us or whatever your motive for your comments may be, is doomed to failure. Why? Because with no shadow of any doubt we believe that if God is for us, you cannot be against us. You are not God. You pull your pants on one leg at a time exactly as we all do. You bleed exactly as we all do. You’re no different than us. Therefore your attempt to dissuade us, in my perception, is nothing more than an attempt by the devil itself to kill us. For myself, I have dismissed your words as worthless. You are entitled to them. I am entitled to throw them away.
That doesn’t mean I will delete them (your mentor specifically, with prejudice, approves/disapproves comments on his Blog to suit his purpose). I want those who visit here to see and read the venomous anger and hostility and resentments that folks like you have for those who have been blessed by the real Word of God!
BTW - what really, truly says volumes and speaks out so much more loudly than your words is the words or information you don’t provide! Sure, we’re all anonymous, yet you make it a point to disallow any return comment where you “reside” on the Internet. Why do you hide? We don’t.
Oh - and - Peace Be With You Also,
Mark
A quick edit - wow Micky, you certainly go out of your way to hide don’t you? A Traceroute with 30 hops - geeesh! I won’t tell ya’ where folks, but Micky speaks with
10 Responses to “Ah Yes! The Imposition Of One’s Will”
1. Micky Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 12:57 am
Greetings Mark
I wonder if this might interest you:
I felt some pain reading your comments - - you didn’t mention how you felt, Mark! I imagine you are a “control freak”, “rageaholic” & “avoider.” You have a conscious fear of intimacy & unconscious fear of abandonment. Being a terrified “little boy,” you rage over your fear, pain, & shame. I wonder if a good therapist might help you process those feelings which are underneath your rage & recover “little Mark” who I imagine, you abandoned many, many years ago. If you continue to attend 12 Step groups you will eventually end up as just another Bill & Bob clone - - emotionally shutdown zombie!! I will pray for you, Mark!
Peace Be With You
Micky
2. Mark Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 6:24 am
Aaaawww - that’s so nice of you Micky… yeah it does “interest” me.
FYI - I had no pain writing them.
There is no fear of intimacy. Been there, done that. The fear of abandonment is real and very conscious and I’m well aware of it. I no longer rage. I’m no longer ashamed.
I guess I’ll just be required to disrupt your happiness. Yep! I’m all of those, but the Twelve Steps, a Loving God and an excellent therapist have already seen me through all your imagined issues and I’m reborn today. “Little Mark” grew up as a direct result of 12 Steps, AA, and God, who led me there. And it wasn’t me who abandoned him, it was my father.
Then - we complete the 180 degrees - I’m fully capable of love. I’m not an emotional zombie. Too bad, Micky, you lose…
I’ll pray for you too
3. Micky Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 7:45 am
I felt some pain when you mentioned that your father abandoned you. I can relate to your process - my mother put me in a convent(England)when I was two. I never knew my father, so i can relate to the pain, shame & grief you felt (I imagine). You mentioned that you feel no pain & no fear of intimacy, but you never mentioned how you felt. Does your therapist help you process your feelings or your non - feelings?? You said you no longer rage (Then - we complete the 180 degrees - I’m fully capable of love. I’m not an emotional zombie. Too bad, Micky, you lose…)- I imagine you were “raging” over your fear & shame. I suggest you change your therapist - has he processed his own history? Do you believe that Jesus Christ died on a cross for your sins, Mark? I will continue to pray for you!!
Peace Be With You
Micky
4. dAAve / higher powered Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
I love baseball.
5. Mark Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 4:47 pm
LMAO - Thanks dAAve!!!
One time and this time only Micky, show a bit of respect - as will I. You cannot, nor will I ever allow you, to question my personal faith in the God I understand. It is God The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. The reality of my stating that has absolutely nothing to do with AA and recovery when contained within the context of your comment. I Love Our Savior as passionately as anyone and never, never neglect thanking all of them for what I have from them.
You have strayed from the topic at hand which are the 12 Steps and recovery from a hopeless state of mind wherever it applies, AA, NA, CA, whatever A…
Seems to me you might have an obsession with how others feel. Why are you so very concerned about how others feel?
I’m happier today than I have ever been in my life! That’s how I feel. You cannot deny that. Sober is good enough for me.
BTW - my father’s abandonment was dealt with in the 12 Steps as I worked them with a sponsor at the same time I worked with a wonderful therapist.
6. Mike Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 9:30 pm
If dAAve is going to get a pickup game going, count me in.
If Micky wants to rant, count me out.
I’ll stick with what works. My life has never been better, nor my relationship with God. I thank God for Bill and Bob.
7. Micky Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 12:26 am
Greetings Mark
I still don’t know what your feeling, “young fella!” I imagine you are completely insane, can you see what the “cult” has done to your brain - completely altered it. You obviously don’t know how to be intimate. I feel some sadness; it probably isn’t your fault.
8Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
[1 Peter 5: 8]
I imagine Satan is starting to devour you, Mark!! John 3: 16 will save you!
Peace Be With You
Micky
8. Mark Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 6:03 am
“I imagine Satan is starting to devour you, Mark!! John 3:16 will save you!”
??? Say What Micky ??? Jesus already saved me by his death on the cross! Where have you been?
BTW - your imagination mechanism is screwed up dude… as in - it ain’t working at all, not one bit, nada.
Thank God! The cult altered my brain!
9
in o-town Says:
October 20th, 2006 at 9:04 pm
i wish i understood fellowship better. I wish i had no expectations of fellowship. after meetings, people often go for dinner or lunch; i go but usually reluctantly. I usually feel so awkward at these social events. It seems like there are many other people who are so much better at getting other peoples attention that i feel lost in the crowd. why the heck do I go? so I can once more have those feelings of invisibility and then once more tell myself that it’s a temporary situation and that I can leave at the end of the meal and be on my way and leave these feelings behind. it makes me want to act out—use drugs or have casual sex. I thought fellowship was supposed to be fun, why is it so painful for me? I dont get it. I’ve been going to meetings for 15 months now and fellowshipping, yet I still dread big groups of people having a meal out. can we go in smaller groups?
10
Mark Says:
October 20th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
in o-town,
Just a first thought - 15 months? Try seeking out a newcomer with less time and talk with them. You have a LOT to offer with 15 months to someone who doesn’t know what’s going on! A better understanding of fellowship will follow…
Second thought - hang in there until you’re able to 3rd Step it. Don’t leave before the miracle happens!
My experience with Alcoholics Anonymous
I have been going to AA since 1991 as a result of an intervention by my X-wife and some of my family. I have had little success in the last 16 years in maintaining abstinence just through AA alone. After many, many treatment programs (rehabs, outpatient) that the only model is 12 step recovery, I Have always “relapsed” after small chunks of sobriety. I have been told over and over that this is the only way to get sober and to stay sober. I had started to believe that because of the repetitious teachings of the treatment centers, the AA groups and individual members of 12 step groups.
All that was accomplished was feelings of guilt, fear and failure. Through all this I was binging and still regularly attending meetings. I was taking suggestions and “working” the program and still no results.
Am I constitutionally incapable, Am I not being honest?
Well, I think not. What I have discovered is that I am not alone.
Through my tenure in AA, I have made contact with a lot of individuals and had spoken of my experience. Statistics are talked about and what is shown is that there is at least a 5 % success rate that people stay in AA for at least a year. After that it drops even lower. What the common factor is that I have noticed is most new people coming into AA and a lot of the people on the fringes that have been around AA and are not sober is the fact of the strong christian nature and flavor of the program. Also what I am observing that all the people that have “got it” are those who have a background or a receptive nature to the religiosity of the program. The chapter to the agnostic would have been more credible if a true agnostic wrote it
We are not unfortunate; we seem to be born with a sense of logic.
AA has become old school, primitive at least. It is not the only program of recovery, just the oldest. The progression of the disease continues and so does the progression of recovery.
What AA does in a long round about way concurs with most of the newer alternative programs like SOS, RR, and secular recovery. Using a sort of Cognitive Behavioral type therapies. Without the superstition and hocus-pocus, we learn that when we change the way we think and react, we change the way we feel and relate to those around us. And remember, don’t drink or use no matter what. Keep a real open mind and give yourself a break. Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion in denial. Don’t get caught in the guilt of your beliefs.
Steve L
A DOZEN STEPS
Ah Yes! The Imposition Of One’s Will
By Mark | Related entries in Opinion
We speak a great deal in AA to the practice of self-will versus God’s Will.
This is only my personal opinion, but I can tell you that this is one asylum the inmates aren’t about to run lmao… so -
I’d like you all to welcome Micky. Micky has made three comments here today;
Micky has visited before with much the same type of talk. Folks, in the spirit of what God has given me, i.e. an immeasurable amount of gratitude, please let us view Micky’s comments in a positive light. I would seriously suggest that none of us attempt to get into a direct confrontation with Micky.
[Edit: I’m sorry folks. I couldn’t resist. I have to stop. Know that I don’t speak for AA but only for me okay? I’m just not quite as “recovered” as others.]
Micky is entitled to Micky’s opinion!
Micky, my personal thoughts to you are these;
It feels very obvious to me who your mentor is from the way you speak. I know of him and his program. We practice AA here. We are all grateful for a new life and sobriety that we thought we’d never know.
Your attempt to provoke us, force your will on us or whatever your motive for your comments may be, is doomed to failure. Why? Because with no shadow of any doubt we believe that if God is for us, you cannot be against us. You are not God. You pull your pants on one leg at a time exactly as we all do. You bleed exactly as we all do. You’re no different than us. Therefore your attempt to dissuade us, in my perception, is nothing more than an attempt by the devil itself to kill us. For myself, I have dismissed your words as worthless. You are entitled to them. I am entitled to throw them away.
That doesn’t mean I will delete them (your mentor specifically, with prejudice, approves/disapproves comments on his Blog to suit his purpose). I want those who visit here to see and read the venomous anger and hostility and resentments that folks like you have for those who have been blessed by the real Word of God!
BTW - what really, truly says volumes and speaks out so much more loudly than your words is the words or information you don’t provide! Sure, we’re all anonymous, yet you make it a point to disallow any return comment where you “reside” on the Internet. Why do you hide? We don’t.
Oh - and - Peace Be With You Also,
Mark
A quick edit - wow Micky, you certainly go out of your way to hide don’t you? A Traceroute with 30 hops - geeesh! I won’t tell ya’ where folks, but Micky speaks with
10 Responses to “Ah Yes! The Imposition Of One’s Will”
1. Micky Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 12:57 am
Greetings Mark
I wonder if this might interest you:
I felt some pain reading your comments - - you didn’t mention how you felt, Mark! I imagine you are a “control freak”, “rageaholic” & “avoider.” You have a conscious fear of intimacy & unconscious fear of abandonment. Being a terrified “little boy,” you rage over your fear, pain, & shame. I wonder if a good therapist might help you process those feelings which are underneath your rage & recover “little Mark” who I imagine, you abandoned many, many years ago. If you continue to attend 12 Step groups you will eventually end up as just another Bill & Bob clone - - emotionally shutdown zombie!! I will pray for you, Mark!
Peace Be With You
Micky
2. Mark Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 6:24 am
Aaaawww - that’s so nice of you Micky… yeah it does “interest” me.
FYI - I had no pain writing them.
There is no fear of intimacy. Been there, done that. The fear of abandonment is real and very conscious and I’m well aware of it. I no longer rage. I’m no longer ashamed.
I guess I’ll just be required to disrupt your happiness. Yep! I’m all of those, but the Twelve Steps, a Loving God and an excellent therapist have already seen me through all your imagined issues and I’m reborn today. “Little Mark” grew up as a direct result of 12 Steps, AA, and God, who led me there. And it wasn’t me who abandoned him, it was my father.
Then - we complete the 180 degrees - I’m fully capable of love. I’m not an emotional zombie. Too bad, Micky, you lose…
I’ll pray for you too
3. Micky Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 7:45 am
I felt some pain when you mentioned that your father abandoned you. I can relate to your process - my mother put me in a convent(England)when I was two. I never knew my father, so i can relate to the pain, shame & grief you felt (I imagine). You mentioned that you feel no pain & no fear of intimacy, but you never mentioned how you felt. Does your therapist help you process your feelings or your non - feelings?? You said you no longer rage (Then - we complete the 180 degrees - I’m fully capable of love. I’m not an emotional zombie. Too bad, Micky, you lose…)- I imagine you were “raging” over your fear & shame. I suggest you change your therapist - has he processed his own history? Do you believe that Jesus Christ died on a cross for your sins, Mark? I will continue to pray for you!!
Peace Be With You
Micky
4. dAAve / higher powered Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
I love baseball.
5. Mark Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 4:47 pm
LMAO - Thanks dAAve!!!
One time and this time only Micky, show a bit of respect - as will I. You cannot, nor will I ever allow you, to question my personal faith in the God I understand. It is God The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. The reality of my stating that has absolutely nothing to do with AA and recovery when contained within the context of your comment. I Love Our Savior as passionately as anyone and never, never neglect thanking all of them for what I have from them.
You have strayed from the topic at hand which are the 12 Steps and recovery from a hopeless state of mind wherever it applies, AA, NA, CA, whatever A…
Seems to me you might have an obsession with how others feel. Why are you so very concerned about how others feel?
I’m happier today than I have ever been in my life! That’s how I feel. You cannot deny that. Sober is good enough for me.
BTW - my father’s abandonment was dealt with in the 12 Steps as I worked them with a sponsor at the same time I worked with a wonderful therapist.
6. Mike Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 9:30 pm
If dAAve is going to get a pickup game going, count me in.
If Micky wants to rant, count me out.
I’ll stick with what works. My life has never been better, nor my relationship with God. I thank God for Bill and Bob.
7. Micky Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 12:26 am
Greetings Mark
I still don’t know what your feeling, “young fella!” I imagine you are completely insane, can you see what the “cult” has done to your brain - completely altered it. You obviously don’t know how to be intimate. I feel some sadness; it probably isn’t your fault.
8Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
[1 Peter 5: 8]
I imagine Satan is starting to devour you, Mark!! John 3: 16 will save you!
Peace Be With You
Micky
8. Mark Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 6:03 am
“I imagine Satan is starting to devour you, Mark!! John 3:16 will save you!”
??? Say What Micky ??? Jesus already saved me by his death on the cross! Where have you been?
BTW - your imagination mechanism is screwed up dude… as in - it ain’t working at all, not one bit, nada.
Thank God! The cult altered my brain!
9
in o-town Says:
October 20th, 2006 at 9:04 pm
i wish i understood fellowship better. I wish i had no expectations of fellowship. after meetings, people often go for dinner or lunch; i go but usually reluctantly. I usually feel so awkward at these social events. It seems like there are many other people who are so much better at getting other peoples attention that i feel lost in the crowd. why the heck do I go? so I can once more have those feelings of invisibility and then once more tell myself that it’s a temporary situation and that I can leave at the end of the meal and be on my way and leave these feelings behind. it makes me want to act out—use drugs or have casual sex. I thought fellowship was supposed to be fun, why is it so painful for me? I dont get it. I’ve been going to meetings for 15 months now and fellowshipping, yet I still dread big groups of people having a meal out. can we go in smaller groups?
10
Mark Says:
October 20th, 2006 at 9:12 pm
in o-town,
Just a first thought - 15 months? Try seeking out a newcomer with less time and talk with them. You have a LOT to offer with 15 months to someone who doesn’t know what’s going on! A better understanding of fellowship will follow…
Second thought - hang in there until you’re able to 3rd Step it. Don’t leave before the miracle happens!
RE: Steve L.
My experience with Alcoholics Anonymous
Oxford group soul surgery techniques called for augmentation of guilt leading to the conversion experience. The alcoholics had learned, through their own conversion, a different method, augmentation of fear with an initial diminution of guilt. “It’s not your fault it’s a disease. There is nothing you can do about it. You’ll die unless you believe.” When a person was properly convinced & reached a point of proper desperation, guilt was then applied to bring about conversion of God control. These new groupers [Steppers] were motivated not primarily by guilt, but by fear. The other groupers [Steppers] being god controlled through guilt would use guilt to manipulate others.
Peace Be With You
Micky
DIARY OF A MADMAN
Instincts
By Mark | Related entries in The Fourth Step
God-given…
From the Fourth Step on page 42 in the 12&12;
“Creation gave us instincts for a purpose. Without them we wouldn’t be complete human beings. If men and women didn’t exert themselves to be secure in their persons, made no effort to harvest food or construct shelter, there would be no survival. If they didn’t reproduce, the earth wouldn’t be populated. If there were no social instinct, if men cared nothing for the society of one another, there would be no society. So these desires - for the sex relation, for material and emotional security, and for companionship - are perfectly necessary and right, and surely God-given.”
Normal - a setting on a washing machine……
The preceding paragraph is followed by talk of how we exceed the “proper function” of our instincts as alcoholics. Definitely true in my case - not to be denied. It has changed with sobriety. Thankfully.
Thankfully because today I find myself in a position which feels like I’m about to make use of new found strength to use my instincts correctly. To be secure in my person. To be more than just surviving, financially and emotionally. I say emotionally because, not without much discussion where necessary, I’m ready to make a life changing decision that hasn’t been easy to arrive at. Out here in the “real” world where I co-exist with my fellow travelers.
There will be a process to go through and time will take time. Yet, I’m ready and willing to trust my God. I’m certain He hasn’t brought me this far to drop me on my head.
[Sorry I have to do this - Micky from Australia, who keeps stalking me through comments that will not get approved in my lifetime - you continue to be reported for spamming this Blog. Plus, with your latest comments you are bordering on libel or defamation of character. FYI - I know some excellent lawyers familiar with Cyberspace who have arms that reach into Australia. Enough said, other than, if you don’t stop harassing me I will be in contact with b5media’s people and any attorneys that can eventually reach you to put an end to your stupidity. End of the attention you so desperately sought.]
The above posting is what can happen to one in 12 Step recovery. This dude, Mark, thinks he is a WASHING MACHINE [higher power]. The stuff he is quoting is out of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions, written by another MADMAN, Bill Wilson [co – founder of AA].
Peace Be With You
Micky
DIARY OF A MADMAN
Instincts
By Mark | Related entries in The Fourth Step
God-given…
From the Fourth Step on page 42 in the 12&12;
“Creation gave us instincts for a purpose. Without them we wouldn’t be complete human beings. If men and women didn’t exert themselves to be secure in their persons, made no effort to harvest food or construct shelter, there would be no survival. If they didn’t reproduce, the earth wouldn’t be populated. If there were no social instinct, if men cared nothing for the society of one another, there would be no society. So these desires - for the sex relation, for material and emotional security, and for companionship - are perfectly necessary and right, and surely God-given.”
Normal - a setting on a washing machine……
The preceding paragraph is followed by talk of how we exceed the “proper function” of our instincts as alcoholics. Definitely true in my case - not to be denied. It has changed with sobriety. Thankfully.
Thankfully because today I find myself in a position which feels like I’m about to make use of new found strength to use my instincts correctly. To be secure in my person. To be more than just surviving, financially and emotionally. I say emotionally because, not without much discussion where necessary, I’m ready to make a life changing decision that hasn’t been easy to arrive at. Out here in the “real” world where I co-exist with my fellow travelers.
There will be a process to go through and time will take time. Yet, I’m ready and willing to trust my God. I’m certain He hasn’t brought me this far to drop me on my head.
[Sorry I have to do this - Micky from Australia, who keeps stalking me through comments that will not get approved in my lifetime - you continue to be reported for spamming this Blog. Plus, with your latest comments you are bordering on libel or defamation of character. FYI - I know some excellent lawyers familiar with Cyberspace who have arms that reach into Australia. Enough said, other than, if you don’t stop harassing me I will be in contact with b5media’s people and any attorneys that can eventually reach you to put an end to your stupidity. End of the attention you so desperately sought.]
The above posting is what can happen to one in 12 Step recovery. This dude, Mark, thinks he is a WASHING MACHINE [higher power]. The stuff he is quoting is out of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions, written by another MADMAN, Bill Wilson [co – founder of AA].
Peace Be With You
Micky
A DOZEN STEPS
Disease or Not? Does it Matter?
By Anne W. | Related entries in Experience, Strength and Hope
Last night at my regular Business Debtors Anonymous meeting I referred to the fact DA’s founder, John H. insisted that compulsive debting isn’t a disease. He had some 40 years in Alcoholics Anonymous prior to starting a 12 Step meeting to help him deal with his own tangled finances, so he was thoroughly familiar with the disease concept of addiction. But when it came to compulsions to spend, he felt it was more a matter of thinking problems than an actual disease.
I was reminded of an article I wrote back in 2000. Dr. Nancy Snyderman challenged the disease theory of alcoholism on ABC’s 20/20 program. The whole idea that addiction may be an illness drives some people nuts, usually, I gather, because they feel it somehow absolves the addict from personal responsibility.
I don’t know that this particular controversy will ever be totally solved. What I am sure of, however, is that it almost doesn’t matter. The real advantage of considering addiction a disease is it makes it easier for people to get help.
I’m also sure that working a 12 Step Program for whatever condition actually helps us take responsibility for our actions and our lives. The 12 Steps and the 12 Step Programs create a willingness to actually change… change our behaviors, change our attitudes, and ultimately change our relationship with the God of our understanding.
In short, it works, when we work it.
With love, blessings and gratitude,
33 Responses to “Disease or Not? Does it Matter?”
34. Jerry Says:
January 14th, 2006 at 12:59 am
You might also note, in addition to saying that John H., did not think debting was a disease (a position he did not always hold), that, though every solvent member of DA does indeed owe their gratitude, John stopped calling himself a debtor many years before his death, and even said he was sorry he had ever named the proram Debtors Anonymous (as opposed to the Self-Doubters Anonymous he later espoused), ultimately, and sadly, John himself was never able to remain solvent, a situation somewhat akin to Bill Wilson never being able to remain sober, and which bears much of the responsibility for the fact that Debtors Anonymous as a whole is a seriously weakened program
Be well,
Jerry M.
35. markw Says:
April 20th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Jerry,
I’m not sure what you’ve meant here when you said “akin to Bill Wilson never being able to remain sober,” because Bill died sober after many productive years in AA. I may be wrong but I believe he had about 26 years, 35-71.
Mark
36. Chemical Aspect of Debt Addiction Says:
August 27th, 2006 at 11:36 am
Hi Everyone,
I find that for me, personally, there is a chemical component to Debt Addiction. When I debt, I get a sudden RUSH of fear, anxiety, worry, causing release of ENDORPHINS which are more addictive than HEROIN. For many years, I felt that I had never had a “substance” issue, never been drunk in my life, never smoked a cigarette, etc, etc. However, I release my addiction to the chemicals (similar to Extreme sports: “Adrenaline junkies” ) released as result of debting behavior were NO DIFFERENT than shooting a needle of heroin into my body.
I thus find for me the DISEASE MODEL very appropriate and true. I have AIDS, but will DIE from DISEASE of DEBTING before I will die from AIDS. That is how serious a DISEASE this is for me,
Scott W.
PS: Hi Jerry - great to see your words of wisdom, God Bless - from Scooter Pie the dachshund
37. Jerry Says:
September 7th, 2006 at 11:37 pm
Markw,
Awkwardly phrased on my part - I meant it *would* have been akin, to what the impact on AA would have been, if Bill Wilson had not been able to remain sober, which of course he was and and which he did do.
(Hi, Scott. Best to you and Scooter Pie both).
Jerry M.
38. Micky Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 6:39 am
There are thousands of people stay who stay sober, but are they saved? What is more important, SALVATION or SOBRIETY? The question aught to be: Did Bill Wilson depends on Jesus Christ for the saving of his soul or was he just concerned with how long he had been sober? Who cares? There is no such thing as ADDICTION!! We are all sinners & the only way to salvation is through the precious blood of Jesus Christ. All you Steppers have been completely indoctrinated with Buchmanism. I beg you, to flee from these “satanic cults” (12 Steps) & talk to a therapist who deals with family of origin issues.
Bill Wilson’s Higher Power - HIMSELF
Bill W. : The absorbing and deeply moving life story of Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous
Robert Thomsen
1-8 of 8 pages with reference to Bill W’s Higher Power inside this book:
1.
on Page 152:
“… BILL W. something more conservative to balance his holdings, he had hit … and, more perhaps than anything, gave him the sense of power he had always craved. Late in the summer he grew … they told him, everything was high, but it was going higher. American Tel and Tel was over 310, General Electric 403. It was a time to have confidence . It was …”
2.
on Page 189:
“… BILL W. tried praying, and keeping an open mind about it … … using the word “God” again, Ebby began speaking of “another power,” a “higher power.” And as he did, Bill was no longer pretending to listen; his full attention had been won. It was …”
3.
on Page 202:
“… BILL W. rightness. No matter how wrong things seemed to be, they … a part of God, himself a living part of the higher power, was a new and revolutionary feeling. And it was a feeling that he wanted to hang on to now, to …”
4.
on Page 230:
“… BILL W. over, he would find himself startled into a smile. There … All he wanted was to feel himself part of the higher power he knew was running the universe. He was also convinced that alcoholism was a three-pronged illness , mental, physical and …”
5.
on Page 240:
“… BILL W. more than a game they were playing, more than a … pragmatists. They might have been instruments, channels through which a higher power had started to work, but for them that afternoon, it was only a start. Forty was a startling figure, but …”
6.
on Page 294:
“… BILL W. But the non-alcoholics remained skeptical. To the psychiatrically oriented, all … inner voice, but in talking with others he would say higher power, life force or any words the listener might be comfortable with. But by whatever name they cared to use, it …”
7.
on Page 298:
“… BILL W. But as with the mysterious ingredient that he knew was … the verge of grasping a message or moving into some higher state of consciousness , he had never talked about it; … years he went on following, trying to understand, a mysterious power he sensed was there, a part of his concept of anonymity. Though he could not quite comprehend its meaning, he …”
8.
on Page 324:
“… BILL W. what has been his fate. Our conversation which he has … when you walk on a path which leads you to higher understanding. You might be led to that goal by an … action from above and isolated in society, cannot resist the power of evil, which is called very aptly the Devil. But the use of such words arouses so many mistakes that …”
1-1 of 1 page with references to Jesus Christ inside this book:
1. on Page 193:
“… some-for the old, the hopeless, for those who had passed beyond loving, beyond any hope of really living, but, by Christ, he was different. It might be the last arrogant gasp of alcoholic pride but, miserable and terrified as he was, …”
Peace Be With You
Micky
39. Mark Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 7:10 am
Micky,
Dude/Dudette - Traditions!!! 21 years, maybe you might read the Traditions???
40. Jerry Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 8:14 am
Which was more important?
That he was sober. That is a known physical, mental, and spiritual condittion, without which, for an alcoholic, everything else is irrelevant.
Being “saved” is strictly a matter of subjective opinon - and no different in its presumed certainty than that of your average jihadist about the importance of being in such a state himself, and what that means, as he blows up himself and innocent, men, women, and children, screaming “Allahu Akbar!”
You really need to learn the difference between religion and spirituality. The former is often simply a form of intolerant stupidity; the latter has to do with a relationship with, for lack of a better word, God.
(You also really ought to learn something about what sobriety, and AA, are. You clearly have a profound ingorance about both.)
Be well,
Jerry M.
41. Micky Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
Greetings Jerry
I felt some pain reading your comments - meaningless words. I imagine you are a terrified “little boy” who escaped into his head quite a long time ago (that’s how you survived). I imagine you could be quite dangerous because you’re not expressing your feelings. AA (Satan) will eventually get your soul - but there is a way out (John 3: 16). How long have you been sober, Jerry? Your process (rage) is not about me, Jerry, but from your childhood. I know, I have done the work (thanks to Jesus) & today I am happy joyous & free. Are you happy joyous & free, Jerry? I imagine not, especially after have read your diatribe. I will pray for you, Jerry!
Peace be With You
Micky
42. Jerry Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Hi there, Micky.
I’m sober 23 years. And, yes, I am happy, joyous, and free - much more so, and more frequently, than not.
I wish you and Jesus every happiness and success together (though, unfortunately, your kind of smug, judgmental narrowness is what often gives Christianty, and through that, sadly, Jesus, who had some decent things to say, a bad name).
Be well,
Jerry M.
43. Micky Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Greetings Jerry
I felt some sadness reading your comments - can you see how you rage (… your kind of smug, judgmental narrowness is what often gives Christianty, and through that, sadly, Jesus, who had some decent things to say, a bad name) how you “rage” & make me wrong. I imagine you are so indoctrinated with Buchmanism that you are not aware of how you relate. As I have mentioned in one of my earlier postings - you have a conscious fear of intimacy & an unconscious fear of abandonment. Your process is not about me but from your childhood. I am trying to help you, Jerry, but I imagine after 23 years of “brainwashing,” only a “spiritual awakening,” will release you from your “psychological prison.” - Hell!!
8Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. [Romans 9: 18]
Has you heart hardened, Jerry?
Peace Be With You
Micky
44. Jerry Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Ah, Micky.
If you weren’t so pernicious, you’d just be silly.
But sadly, your closed mind, frozen spirit, and hard heart make you a menace to those who are vulnerable to this particular kind of madness.
Look: let X = AA, and let Y = your views.
In that equation, I am thrilled, and delighted, and will be eternally grateful, that I have been blessed with X rather than condemned to Y.
Since you’re clearly just trolling in waters that are greatly beyond your own depth, I’ll just end this senseless exchange here, let you embarrass yourself (and unfortunatley, truly spiritual Christians everywhere) with whatever final post you wish to make, and then let these healing waters return to calmness.
Be well,
Jerry M.
45. Micky Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Greetings Jerry
is your fear starting to surface, (I’ll just end this senseless exchange here, let you embarrass yourself ) Jerry? Stay with the fear & feel it - your process is not about me. Can you see how you have a conscious fear of intimacy (I’ll just end this senseless exchange…) & how you want to “run away,” like a terrified “little boy!”
I imagine you are an emotional coward & you have used the 12 Steps to medicate your feelings or (non - feelings). Did you know that Bill Wilson was insane? Are you insane, Jerry? I suggest you get down on your knees & ask Jesus Christ to forgive you for your diatribe (sins).
23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23 (New International Version)
Peace Be With You
Micky
46. Mark Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 4:54 pm
Well, well, please, oh please, I’d like to tell Jerry - Thank You!!! Very Much!!!
Precisely how I feel also! Wish I had had the wherewithal to put it into the words you’ve used Jerry.
Much appreciated…
47. Jerry Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 5:27 pm
You’re welcome, Mark.
My pleasure.
This little bigot can’t even spell the name of the doctrine he tries to conflate with AA - it’s *Buchmanism,* not Buchanism. (But then, these people were never noted for their intelligence.)
When they start talking about Satan (or the Great Satan), this way, you know the suicide bombers (and clinic bombers) and the fires of the Inquisition (and of the fatwa) are not far behind.
These are not people of the God of love. These are people of the God of cruely, vengeance, and madness - whom they have fashioned in their own sickened image.
Be well,
Jerry M.
48. Mark Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 7:38 pm
Okay Micky - here’s the deal. You are no longer respectful of others and refuse to play nicely, therefore that last comment, being nothing more than further character assassination, has been deleted.
You are not in control here - I am…
49. Micky Says:
October 18th, 2006 at 11:56 pm
Greetings Mark
how do you feel, “young fella?” I imagine your stomach is churning. I imagine you are feeling some fear, pain & shame - that’s how you felt as a little boy. You had to shut down emotionally & escape into your head. You are an adult now Mark so it is OK to feel your terror. Have you got anyone to support you? I wish I could be there for you, because obviously your Dad wasn’t!! It would be fine by me, if you decided to have a good cry - feel your grief. I will continue to pray for you - I imagine you are in quite a lot of pain. Your not going to pick up a drink, are you, Mark? Please don’t!!
Peace Be With You
Micky
50. Jerry Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 12:34 am
Mark,
I think you ought to just ban this guy completely. Just excise him, like a tumor. He’s malignant. This is truly the face of pathology.
Be well,
Jerry M.
51. Micky Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 1:01 am
Greetings Jerry & Mark
I wonder if this might interest you:
16 “No one lights a lamp and hides it in a clay jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, they put it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light. 17 For there are nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open. 18 Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Those who have will be given more; as for those who do not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them.”
Deleting my comments when you are triggered is not going to assist you in your recovery. Do you want to recover or stay stuck in your “stuff?” This will be my last comment - you will have to find someone else to direct your rage. I “love” you & will continue to pray for you.
8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. [John 3: 8]
Are you born of the Spirit, Jerry & Mark?
Peace Be With You
Micky
52. Mark Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 6:14 am
I understand how you feel about him Jerry but I also recall something in our literature that says something along the lines of “he came to scoff and remained to pray.”
Micky can’t defeat the reality of recovery. I was taught by some wonderful oldtimers that God is more powerful than the disease. That will work here as well.
53. Jerry Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 8:42 am
Okay by me, Mark.
Here in New York, we do say at meetings, when necessary, that disruptions will not be tolerated. And we enforce that. Of course we allow anyone to share his own personal convictions about himself and his sobriety, but when a lunatic (religious or otherwise) starts raving, we do escort him out.
Your blog. I’ll support you in however you wish to manage it.
Be well,
Jerry
54. Mark Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 8:43 pm
Jerry,
I really appreciate your feedback and concern. I also agree, (I was “brought up” in AA on Long Island) yet I find a Blog in cyberspace a bit different. I can cut him off anytime I want to but, I do have to be aware of freedom of speech issues for those who supply the means here to the end. I also truly believe that the God I understand will take care of any situation if indeed it gets out of hand. Right now, I’ll be taking care that Micky doesn’t attempt to become too cute as David. He’s already lied about not making any more comments by making believe he’s someone else. IP’s tell the tale though…
That is truly pathological.
55. Jerry Says:
October 19th, 2006 at 10:08 pm
Again - your blog, Mark. And again, I’ll support anything you want to do with it.
There’s no madness like religious madness, no pathology like religious pathology.
It’s a shame religion so infrequently has anything to do with spirituality.
Be well,
Jerry
56. David Says:
October 20th, 2006 at 3:37 am
I have been mesmerised by Micky’s comments on your BLOG, Mark!! He has certainly done the work & he has recovered from alcoholism (22 years), which is a rarity these days. There are quite a few STEPPERS who have been sober quite longer than Micky, but are they recovered? “There’s the rub!” From my observations, he has certainly triggered you & Jerry & I sense that you are both clutching at straws as to what to do next. I suppose you could go to an AA meeting & recharge your batteries. Are you a recovered alcoholic, Mark? Is Jerry? Do you actually recover from alcoholism by going to an AA meeting? I didn’t? Well I must be off, more fantasies to dispose of!!
I suppose you & Jerry have yours? Let me guess!! It wouldn’t start with an A.
57. Mark Says:
October 20th, 2006 at 6:27 am
David/Micky,
There’s only one thing on this planet that mesmerizes you - your mirror…
Try another comment - if everything works correctly you’ll be in moderation - Ha! LMAO - YOU - in moderation!!!
58. mike p Says:
October 20th, 2006 at 11:17 am
I say take em to the
‘pit’
‘ and let them deal with him.
we tolerate each other as much as possible except when to do so would hurt AA as a whole .
59. mike p Says:
October 20th, 2006 at 11:19 am
Lighten up ,, happy joyus and free are we .
60. David Says:
November 10th, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Edited: Fruitcake’s comments excised…
61. Jerry Says:
November 10th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
Ah, the fruitcake is back - and just as nutty as ever.
62. David Says:
November 10th, 2006 at 10:33 pm
Edited: Here, Trimpy Clone (oooh, did I do like you do? Try to make fun? Aaaawwwww - too bad.)
Yes, the power on this Blog is mine, as much as you continue to try to wrest it from me lol… But, here is something that you obviously haven’t read. Romans 8;
“So now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you through Christ Jesus from the power of sin that leads to death.”
You can call me Markus or Markey or whatever childish variation you care to use. Each time you do you prove yourself the a**hole. Go ahead, keep it up and I’ll continue to edit or delete your ignorance as I see fit.
Got it? Just remember, you have no power over me or us.
63. Jerry Says:
November 11th, 2006 at 10:21 am
I saw the last post from Micky, Mark. Figured there was no point responding, that you would remove it.
I know you’re reluctant to do so, and I agree with the reluctance. But, in this case, I think it is as necessary to do as it would be to remove someone who was frothing and raving from any room or gathering.
This guy is truly looney - and vilely so. He is in genuine need of psychiatric help.
(Nor, sadly, does he have any real understanding of, or internal experience of, the religion he claims to profess.)
His is the religion of dementia, of the thumbscrew and the rack, of hatred and condemnation, of slaughter.
I wish for you happiness and peace.
Best,
Jerry
64. Mark Says:
November 12th, 2006 at 8:28 am
He ought to be TOAST now Jerry… much thanks!
65. Leslie Says:
November 17th, 2006 at 12:08 am
Wow!
66. mike p/ f n g online Says:
November 17th, 2006 at 9:27 am
you can say that again Leslie …..whewwwwww
That's All Folks!! Make up your own mind.
Peace Be With You
Micky
12 steps to God, and possibly salvation from alcohol. Thing is, I did try the AA thing, and was sorely disappointed. It was a cult, it was its own version of faith-based, Christian indoctrination. Much in the way that the Salvation Army provides housing and meals for those that need it..........however, those folks have to attend services, and/or 'give thanks to God' for the meals provided.
I suppose. Thing is, if God was truly so wonderful, I wonder why he saw it fit to provide me with the genetic blueprint that made me more easily vulnerable to addiction in the first place. Personally, I'm not a bad person, and I actually possess ideals that are rather compassionate. I regularily give to charity, I often give the corner homeless dude five or ten dollars instead of a pitiful few cents, and I do it because I want to, not because I feel some God is going to pat me on the head for being a good (whatever), or slam-dunk me into hell for not doing it.
AA works for a lot of people, but it's something that they have to do, because they can't see their lives beyond God's laws or His loving hand. If it works for them, so be it, but it's a damned shame that AA, an organization that seems to be a 'hand up' as opposed to a 'hand-out', has to base their entire creed on those 12 steps. Many, many people are seriously addicted, and refuse to choose AA because of the stigma attached to the whole religious aspect of it. Many, many people that are addicted to a substance, be it drugs or alcohol, have felt rejected by the notion of a god that supposedly loves all unconditionally, and just don't want to have to deal with either their loss of faith, or their rejection of the concept of a god that creates flaws in our souls/psyche/id on such a regular basis, and one can't help but wonder if He is just truly a cruel son of a bitch as the Old Testament seems to illustrate...........truth be told, if one reads the bible objectively, Jehovah comes off like a spoiled child, angry, beligerant, and sometimes even insanely bloodthirsty. It's hard to find solice in such anger. For every hand that's offered by God in love, there seems to be another ready to slap in retribution.
People need a few steps to sobriety, but for a lot of folks, AA is surprisingly narrow in its plan for that path. A shame, since they could do so much better.
Munski said...
I suppose. Thing is, if God was truly so wonderful, I wonder why he saw it fit to provide me with the genetic blueprint that made me more easily vulnerable to addiction in the first place.
,,,,, and one can't help but wonder if He is just truly a cruel son of a bitch as the Old Testament seems to illustrate...........truth be told, if one reads the bible objectively, Jehovah comes off like a spoiled child, angry, beligerant, and sometimes even insanely bloodthirsty. It's hard to find solice in such anger. For every hand that's offered by God in love, there seems to be another ready to slap in retribution.
I can relate to your process – being a VICTIM!! Your process is not about God or the SALVATION ARMY, but unprocessed STUFF from your childhood. I imagine you are a RAGEAHOLIC & AVOIDER!! You have a conscious fear of intimacy and an unconscious fear of abandonment. You RAGE over your fear, pain & shame and project it on to GOD, WHATEVER or WHOEVER. Start feeling your fear and pain – that’s the TRANSFORMATION, you unconsciously desire. I suggest you see a good therapist who does INNER CHILD WORK!! You are obviously a TERRIFIED “Little Child”!! I wondered also if you might get down on your knees and ask JESUS to forgive you for the ABOVE DIATRIBE [sin]. You might possibly then, have a chance of recovering that TERRIFIED CHILD, who you ABANDONED a long time ago. Were you abused or abandoned as a child, Munski? I love you and will pray for you. I noticed, that you don’t have a contact email address or BLOG – CLASSIC AVOIDER!!
Peace be With You
Micky
I used to be a big crystal meth dealer and my life was going nowhere fast. I'm also an Atheist. I'm still an Atheist but I found the NA/AA program and it has literally saved my life.
I have to remind myself that God means 'Good Orderly Direction' or something else I think it ought to be when I hear it sometimes, but, I don't know of another program which could have put my life back on track.
Careful what you criticize until you find yourself needing it yourself.
I am happy to say I am a recovering alcoholic. Getting rid of the drink was only to rid myself of the symptom. My disease lives in my head. I have been a victim of severely distorted thinking. I thank God for the fellowship of AA! I not only learned what it means to be happy in my skin but I have also learned to give and how to forgive. I love my family as dysfunctional as they maybe I thank God for all of the people he has put into my life. I am happy to say that I love all of you people out there and I hope you are all having a great as time as I am being alive. Even when things don't go my way as often as they may I thank God and the fellowship of AA I have made it through another day without even thinking about a drink! AA is not a religion. It is a spiritual program. Religion is for those who don't want to go to hell and spirituality is for those who don't want to go back to hell. When I was drinking I was in hell. AA is not a full service restraunt it is an all you can eat buffet. You have to help yourself. Nobody can or is going to do it for you.The program works if you work the program. In AA i have a 24 hour reprieve my sobriety is one day at a time so for all you statistics lovers out there if you want to count us you need to recount us each day!Don't only count the people who drank again Count the people who have come back. Statistics of the alcoholic are stupid. You make us sound like the white rhino and the recovering alcohlic there is little chance of survival or hope. You may not have hope for me and that's OK I have hope for myself and my fellows. I have hope for EVERYONE! Alcoholic or not. Need a little hope? love?faith? I have plenty to spare. Thanks to God as I understand him, and thanks to the twelve steps of AA for helping me find Him. MY LOVE AND PRAYERS TO YOU ALL!!!
davieboy said...
I have to remind myself that God means 'Good Orderly Direction' or something else I think it ought to be when I hear it sometimes, but, I don't know of another program which could have put my life back on track.
Greetings Dave
What does ‘Good Orderly Direction,’ mean? Do you know what it sounds like to me David – CONTROL!! You are trying to control your process!! How does the PROGRAM, work, DAVO? I have never seen any PROGRAM working, what sort of work does the PROGRAM, do? Is that the name of someone in AA/NA [PROGRAM]? The above DIATRIBE is just meaningless words. You are obviously an emotionally shutdown Atheist who is being controlled by SATAN. If you want to RECOVER, start getting in touch with your feelings!! DAVY! Do you know what a FEELING, is? I feel some pain because I imagine you are just another Bill Wilson clone. The 12 Steps will eventually send you insane, and you will be just like SATAN [who prowls around waiting for someone to devour]. I’m not criticizing you, Dave!! [Who wants his MOMMY?]. The only hope for you is John 3: 16. How do you FEEL, DAVE?
Peace Be With You
Micky
Micky,
Please stop spamming this blog with comments from other postings.
Larry Moran said...
Micky,
Please stop spamming this blog with comments from other postings.
Greetings Larry
I felt some pain when I read your comments about spamming!! Were you triggered by my last posting, Lawrence? Are you just another emotionally, shutdown, atheist, who has escaped into his head because he is too terrified to face his DEMONS? How do you feel, Larry? I suggest you get down on your knees and ask Jesus Christ to forgive you for your sins. I will pray for you, Mr Moran! I “love” you, Lawrence!!
Peace Be With You
Micky
AA PUSSIES!!
I don't attend AA meetings anymore -- thank God. I imagine leaving AA becomes more difficult the longer one has been exposed to this evil, soul-destroying cult. I read with some sadness of a Stepper who wanted to leave but found it difficult because AA was his whole life. One becomes trapped & I imagine most Steppers feel safe albeit quite isolated from the real world. I imagine most Steppers don't have the guts to quit (AA) because of the indoctrination ("If you quit AA -- You will drink").
My process (recovery) started in 1994 (therapy, etc) but it took me many years to make a complete break from all 12 Step programs (I was also going to SLAA, CODA, ACOA). I imagine most alcoholics are terrified of intimacy (emotional cowards) & attending 12 Step programs is the ultimate escape (from intimacy). I would suggest that quite a few of the Steppers are "pussies" because they won’t face life "full on" without the "crutch" of 12 Step programs.
Peace Be With You
Micky
Steppers are continually captivated by their past memories (drinking stories) & are fascinated with the dead & unchanging image of what it was like for them as practicing alcoholics. Why do they attend meetings? So they can hear the other Bill & Bob clones talk about the past & stay in the land of the dead. 12 Step programs are the greatest horror story, because the Steppers have been so indoctrinated -- they aren't aware they are lifeless robots. They can do nothing to save themselves while they continue to attend 12 Step meetings.
I have had a mutation of the mind (METANOIA) -- through the saving grace of Jesus Christ. Salvation is always the ending of the mind's fascinated identification with the dead & unchanging image of what it was". It is the complete reversal of the "natural" order of things, a METANOIA -- the Greek word for repentance, meaning precisely a turning-around of the mind, so that it no longer faces into the past, the land of the shadow of death, but into the Eternal Present.
So long as the mind is captivated by memory, and really feels itself to be that past image -- which is "I", it can do nothing to save itself; its sacrifices are of no avail, & its law gives no life".
Buchman, Wilson & Smith have done an excellent job; Wilson talked to "dead people" & if you too want to talk to DEAD PEOPLE [ZOMBIES], attend an AA meeting.
Peace Be With You
Micky
The easiest way to get rid of one addiction is to replace it with another; in the case of AA, alcoholism is easily replaced with religion. The fact that religion is addictive is the main reason why God gets credited so frequently with curing substance addictions.
"Hey Bob"
BILL:]
Hey, hey BOB, I had a SPIRITUAL AWAKENING
Hey, hey BOB, my higher power, will always do
I've waited so long for BOOZE to be through
BOB, I can't wait to meet you
My love, my love
[BOB:]
Hey BILL, I've had a BRAINSTORM too
Hey, hey, hey BILL, I want to meet you too
If your PROGRAM is true, if you love AA, BILL!!
The BIG BOOK will always be real
My love, my love
[BILL&BOB:]
AA means planning a life for two
Being together the whole day through
True SOBRIETY means waiting and hoping that soon
The 12 STEPS will come true
My love, my love
Peace Be With You
Micky
It is always amusing to read the comments of people when they are discussing that which they know nothing about, and to watch them make asses of themselves. Here is a partial reading list for you:
Emmett Fox
James Allen
William James
Dr. Carl Jung
After you have read those you will understand that AA is nothing of any religious order you've known of before. It is a program based on the principles of metaphysics and is more closely associated with the Illuminist movement that made several attempts at starting throughout Europe. The Illuminists were sought out and destroyed systematically by the church every time they tried to start.
Illuminism basically says that you have a guide that helps you connect with the universal spirit, and then you no longer need outside coaching, reather you can draw from the source itself.
BTW, most people are not aware that Bill Wilson was no stoop. He invented market research as we know it today, and he rubbed elbows with such people as the Rockefellers and the DuPonts prior to his severe alcoholism. Rockefeller even offered to bankroll AA and take it commercial but it was decided by the group that AA would function best as an avocational society made of of lay people.
Once again, thanks for the laughs as I read the rantings of morons who feel compelled to ridicule that of which they are so obviously ignorant.
Larry W. said...
It is always amusing to read the comments of people when they are discussing that which they know nothing about, and to watch them make asses of themselves. Here is a partial reading list for you:
Once again, thanks for the laughs as I read the rantings of morons who feel compelled to ridicule that of which they are so obviously ignorant.
Emmett Fox
James Allen
William James
Dr. Carl Jung
Emmet Fox
(1886-1951)
One of the most influential New Thought authors of the 20th Century
Statement of Being
God is all, both invisible and visible.
One Presence, One Mind, One Power is all.
This One that is all is Perfect Life,
Perfect Love, and Perfect Substance.
Man is the individualized expression of God
and is ever one with this Perfect Life,
Perfect Love, and Perfect Substance.
James Allen
(1864-1912)
Allen insists upon the power of the individual to form his own character and to create his own happiness. Thought and character are one, he says, and as character can only manifest and discover itself through environment and circumstance, the outer conditions of a person's life will always be found to be harmoniously related to his inner state. This does not mean that a man's circumstances at any given time are an indication of his entire character, but that those circumstances are so intimately connected with some vital thought element within him that, for the time being, they are indispensable to his development.
WILLIAM JAMES
William James (January 11, 1842 – August 26, 1910) was a pioneering American psychologist and philosopher.
Epistemology
James defined true beliefs as those that prove useful to the believer. Truth, he said, is that which works in the way of belief. "True ideas lead us into useful verbal and conceptual quarters as well as directly up to useful sensible termini. They lead to consistency, stability and flowing human intercourse" but "all true processes must lead to the face of directly verifying sensible experiences somewhere," he wrote.[4]
During his Harvard years, James joined in philosophical discussions with Charles Peirce, Oliver Wendell Holmes, and Chauncey Wright that evolved into a lively group known as the Metaphysical Club by the early 1870s. Louis Menand speculates that the Club provided a foundation for American intellectual thought for decades to come.
The Metaphysical Club: A Story of Ideas in America is a Pulitzer Prize-winning 2001 book by Louis Menand, an American writer and legal scholar. The Metaphysical Club recounts the lives and intellectual work of the handful of thinkers primarily responsible for the philosophical concept of Pragmatism,
CARL JUNG
Jung was born in Kesswil, in the Swiss canton of Thurgau on July 26, 1875.
In 1938, he delivered the Terry Lectures, Psychology and Religion, at Yale University. It was at about this stage in his life that Jung visited India. His experience in India led him to become fascinated and deeply involved with Eastern philosophies and religions, helping him come up with key concepts of his ideology, including integrating spirituality into everyday life and appreciation of the unconscious.
Spirituality as a cure for alcoholism
Jung's influence can sometimes be found in more unexpected quarters. For example, Jung once treated an American patient - one Rowland H. - suffering from chronic alcoholism. After working with the patient for some time, and achieving no significant progress, Jung told the man that his alcoholic condition was near to hopeless, save only the possibility of a spiritual experience. Jung noted that occasionally such experiences had been known to reform alcoholics where all else had failed.
I imagine that Fox, Allen, James & Jung were emotional cripples who escaped into their heads because they were too terrified to face their DEMONS. They ended up becoming agents for SATAN & one can see how the ultimate in SATANIC CULTS [AA] evolved, because of their DEMONIC beliefs.
Has anyone noticed anything in the ABOVE – JESUS CHRIST is not mentioned?
I am not clear, where you are coming from, Larry!! Are you just another Bill Wilson clone?
Are you laughing, now, Lawrence?
Peace Be With You
Micky
I've attended AA meetings for a year and a half. The thing I've observed is that in all the stories told. All the people were trying to fill a void in there life through alcohol or drugs. In going to AA and attending those meetings they replace the alcohol or drugs with the AA meetings. When attending the meetings they can sometimes make friends and have fellowship with those friends. They stress to go to meetings to avoid feeling lonely or allowing stress to overwhelm you into to going out and once again trying to fill the void with alcohol.
If all you do is go to AA and don't try to change your lifestyle in other ways and find other areas of interest, then you will fail or AA will become your whole life which is no way to live your life. Getting together 7 to 15 times a week and rehashing the same old stories is not recovery. If you have a drinking problem you have to stop for yourself. You don't stop because you have a sponsor or by attending meetings. The key to stopping any addiction is to fill your life with other activities that result in a healthier lifestyle. You can do this without AA. I'm not criticizing AA because for some people it works. Just going to meetings does fill that void in there life. But I think for most people eventually it will become monotanous and you will look to other areas to fill that void in your life. Hopefully, it will be something other than your old addiction.
I must say it irritates me that when people stop coming to meetings. The people in AA automatically assume those people are back out on the streets drunk and using again. They never consider they've found something more fulfilling than AA. For those people to assume the worst about you shows they weren't truly your friends and shows for all there talk about spirituality, they still have a void spiritually.
BILL WILSON'S PACT WITH SATAN
From Bill's Story:
Co - founder of AA, Bill Wilson's story has been in every edition of the book Alcoholics Anonymous.
With ministers, and the world's religions, I parted right there. When they talked of a God personal to me, who was love, superhuman strength and direction, I became irritated and my mind snapped shut against such a theory.
To Christ I conceded the certainty of a great man, not too closely followed by those who claimed Him. His moral teaching -- most excellent. For myself, I had adopted those parts which seemed convenient and not too difficult; the rest I disregarded.
My friend suggested what then seemed a novel idea. He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?"
That statement hit me hard. It melted the icy intellectual mountain in whose shadow I had lived and shivered many years. I stood in the sunlight at last.
It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a Power greater than myself. Nothing more was required of me to make my beginning. I saw that growth could start from that point. Upon a foundation of complete willingness I might build what I saw in my friend. Would I have it? Of course I would!
Thus was I convinced that God is concerned with us humans when we want Him enough. At long last I saw, I felt, I believed. Scales of pride and prejudice fell from my eyes. A new world came into view.
The real significance of my experience in the Cathedral burst upon me. For a brief moment, I had needed and wanted God. There had been a humble willingness to have Him with me -- and He came. But soon the sense of His presence had been blotted out by worldly clamors, mostly those within myself. And so it had been ever since. How blind I had been.
At the hospital I was separated from alcohol for the last time. Treatment seemed wise, for I showed signs of delirium tremens.
There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then I understood Him, to do with me as He would. I placed myself unreservedly under His care and direction. I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that without Him I was lost. I ruthlessly faced my sins and became willing to have my new-found Friend take them away, root and branch. I have not had a drink since. Simple, but not easy; a price had to be paid. It meant destruction of self-centeredness. I must turn in all things to the Father of Light who presides over us all.
These were revolutionary and drastic proposals, but the moment I fully accepted them, the effect was electric. There was a sense of victory, followed by such a peace and serenity as I had never know. There was utter confidence. I felt lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew through and through. God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me was sudden
and profound.
For a moment I was alarmed, and called my friend, the doctor, to ask if I were still sane. He listened in wonder as I talked.
Finally he shook his head saying, "Something has happened to you I don't understand. But you had better hang on to it. Anything is better than the way you were." The good doctor now sees many men who have such experiences. He knows that they are real.
While I lay in the hospital the thought came that there were thousands of hopeless alcoholics who might be glad to have what had been so freely given me. Perhaps I could help some of them. They in turn might work with others.
There is no mention of JESUS CHRIST in the BIG BOOK or the 12 STEPS. Wilson was used by SATAN to delude millions of people.
John 3:16 (chapter 3, verse 16 of the Gospel of John) is one of the most widely quoted verses from the Christian Bible. It has been called the "Bible in a nutshell" because it is considered a summary of some of the most central doctrines of traditional Christianity:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
A typical interpretation of the verse might go as follows:
· For God so loved the world... - God is a God of love and this love motivates his action in the rest of the verse
· ...that he gave... - there was God giving something, his son as a sacrifice
· ...his only begotten[1] Son... - the human Jesus of Nazareth is also the Son of God, and also the Second Person of the Trinity
· ...that whosoever... - that salvation is open to all who will believe
· ...believeth... - being saved is based on belief or faith, rather than based on human works.
· ...in Him... - the belief being in Jesus, the Saviour
· ...should not perish... - implies the fate of those who do not believe, that is the doctrine of hell
· ...but have everlasting life. - shows the reward of those who believe, that is the doctrine of heaven
Peace Be With You
Micky
Try going to an AA meeting without conforming. Good luck. I used to say, and I still do, check your brain at the door.
I cannot tell you how many AA meetings I left, thinking that if my choices were to be in AA or drink, I'd choose drinking.
I went to my first meeting 30 years ago. I am most qualified to speak for AA.
Micky, are you the Micky on the AA horror stories cite? You are very long winded, to the extent most people won't read your post, and you are going to lose a majority based on the religion stuff.
Oh, and BTW, Micky, no doubt you're a Bush supporter with what you put forth. Not to derail, but Jesus never supported a war in Iraq. I always get nervous when the overzealous Christians come out of the woodwork. Save it.
And to the poster before Micky, you are dead on. I couldn't agree more with your points, which is why I am trying to fill my life with other positive things.
I cannot tell you, in 30 years, how painful it's been to feel like I am relegated to those meetings, because humanity is so backwards at this point. Addiction is a brain illness, treatable with drugs to at least boost certain neurotransmitters in the interim, until the brain has a chance to heal. The dangerous part is when the levels are dropping and you start getting sucked into more dangerous things, like AA.
Let's face it: there are not and cannot be accurate data on people in AA and their outcomes. It's an anonymous program.
And plenty of people make it work in the context of atheism or whatever beliefs they hold. Plenty of people don't too, no doubt.
I agree that at some point, you do have to check your brain at the door to continue, but I never fail to be amused when people want to talk about efficacy rates and outcomes. That data just is not available.
Anonymous said...
I cannot tell you how many AA meetings I left, thinking that if my choices were to be in AA or drink, I'd choose drinking.
I went to my first meeting 30 years ago. I am most qualified to speak for AA.
Greetings Anonymous [Emotional Coward]
I imagine that your brain has been completely altered with Bill Wilson’s anti – Christ propaganda [AA]. I’ll let you into a little secret, Anonymous [SHIFT SHAPING REPTILE], one can stay sober without the need for AA meetings – I have!! The only qualifications you have, Anonymous [Bill Wilson Clone], are the qualifications you received from SATAN, when you abandoned yourself to him, 30 years ago [AA].
Peace be With You
Micky
DOES ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS FOCUS ON JESUS CHRIST?
AGENTS FOR SATAN
A REASON A SEASON A LIFETIME
AAWAKENINGS
ALCOHOLIC BRAIN
ANONYMOUS ALCOHOLIC
ATTITUDE OF GRATITUDE
BIG SKY MAACK
BLUE'S THOUGHTS
COFFEE BITCH
DRAGON SPEAK
FLOWERDAVES PAGES
FROM THE FIRST CHAKRA (MSB)
HIGHER POWERED
I'M JUST F.I.N.E.
INMATEZ WIFE
IT'S A GIRL THING
LUSH FOR LIFE
MY JOURNEY TO RECOVERY
MY LIFE IN TAMPA
NO COMMENT
OUTRIGHT MENTAL DEFECTIVE
POSTCARDS FROM CUPCAKE MONKEY
RAANCH
RECOVERY ROAD
RIDIN' ON THE WAGON
SCOUT'S NEWCOMER DAZE
SIMPLY ANNA
SOBER CHICK
SOBER MOM
SOBER NUGGETS
SOBERING THOUGHTS
SOBERINSANITY
STAY AT HOME MOTHERDOM
STAYING STRAIGHT EDGE
THIS UNMANAGEABLE LIFE
THY WILL, NOT MINE
TODAAY
TWELVEBEADS
TWO DOGS BLOGGING
YOU AND ME ARE FLOATING...
Peace Be With You
Micky
A.A. -- like all 12 step programs -- emphasizes PERSONAL SPIRITUALITY -- not Christianity. The path to beating addictions is most successful with just that, which our culture as a whole sorely lacks. Don't knock it till you try it.
Anonymous said...
I always get nervous when the overzealous Christians come out of the woodwork. Save it.
I LOVE JESUS SO MUCH
I SHOULD NEVER HAVE ANY CAUSE OR REASON TO BE ASHAMED TO LOVE JESUS.
Is not the time coming, and the day hastening, when covetous men shall be ashamed of loving the world, and voluptuous men ashamed of loving their pleasures, and ambitious men ashamed of loving their honors?
For is it not a horrid shame, that a rational creature should be such a sot as to love sin which is most loathsome, and not to love Jesus who is most lovely? to love deformity, and not beauty?
Oh shame, shame! It is a shame that sin should have such esteem, and Jesus such great contempt put upon him. But shame shall before long confound these now shameless wretches, when they shall cry out, "We are ashamed that we loved profits, and not Jesus- houses, lands, lusts, and not Jesus.
This is the confusion of our faces, and shame covers us-- that we should be so foolish, and so blind, that we had not sense, nor reason, to distinguish between sin, which is the greatest and most odious evil, and Jesus who is the greatest and most lovely good." But the time will never come, the day will never be, that a gracious soul shall be ashamed of his sincere love to Jesus Christ.
does anyone have experience with the "pods" in san francisco aa?
We'll just agree to disagree. I believe in God but it is a MAJOR TURNOFF when people start sounding like they preach from the pulpit at some baptist church. Makes me want to convert to Buddhism, seriously.
If AA works for some, fine. My greatest frustration is in treating what is a huge public health problem with an antiquated program of 70 years. I guess those with addictions are just the scourge of society. The whole AA thing just reinforces negative perceptions and this attitude that addicts are losers, so why really try to find a way to treat them. We'll just throw 'em all in AA where a good number are pathologically sick, rapists, thieves, liars, cheats and even murderers. Just let 'em sink or swim.
Speaking as an atheistic AA, I think that I may have a relatively novel approach to these problems, an insider untatinted by the blinding faith in god.
Let me just touch on a few points of contention.
1. AA, as related in it's own literature, is not religious, but rather spiritual. This may seem inconsistent, but it really is not. Religion is limited to singular doxa, practices that rely on a sectarian mindset, whether that is the Baptist sect or the Hindu sect, etc. Spiritualism is really an antiquated way of talking about ethics. I think that because the original founders had their ethical and moral awakening in the midst of religious fervor they wrote with a style that reflected cultural norms of their day. I think that these cultural norms still exist today to a large degree. Nonetheless, god is not forced, at least not in my experience. I recognize as my "higher power" the universe around me. I have almost no control over it, but its power to influence and affect me is unimaginable.
2. AA is not an addiction. It is a reaffirmation of one's maladaptive behaviour. Whether this reaffirmation is a negative or a positive reinforcement is up for debate. I went to AA in order to stop shooting heroin. What I found when I got there was ver little emphasis on the drugs and alcohol part of my life. Rather, I was encouraged to reevaluate my reactions and behaviours in every other circumstance. What I found was that, like nearly all persons with dependencies, is that my life is very much like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I have obsessions which are based on fear. These obsessions come from every part of my life from the personal to the interpersonal to the professional. These fears are usually over-exagerrated and irrational expressions. My fears feed my compulsion, an unfulfilled compulsion to get high, that being the only way I know of to solve my fear, anxiety, depression, boredom, anger, etc. When I start using heroin I cannot stop on my own will, no matter how much I wish for it, want it, try so hard to do it, I have ALWAYS failed. Amazingly, I can apply my free will with great force in other areas of my life, especially school and work. AA showed me simple steps for resolving any problems that I have created or expanded, and because of my own selfish and self serving behaviour, there are many of thes problems.
3. There may now be a low rate of success in AA. Some of this data may be misinterpreted and even if it is wholly true this has not always been the case. When AA was originally founded, there had already been similar previous groups (like the Oxford Group) trying to deal with alcoholism with limited success. AA, in a way, sort of reinvented much of this early thinking. As the program grew in the first few decades, the success rate was very high. There were contemporary studies proving this. Why the effectiveness has decreased is unclear. It has been suggested that many of the early adherents were truly a rock bottom and willing to do anything to stop drinking. This hypothesis goes on to say that now, AA is so much more relied upon, especially in preventive work by hospitals and criminal justice systems, that few of the people attending are there of their own volition, but have rather been in some way pressured or encouraged to attend. Furthermore, recent studies have shown that while the initial success rate of someone entering a group is low, even if they drop out, their chances of returning and sobering permanently on a second or third try is much higher than those who do not attend at all.
While I find that AA is very challenging to my sense of self, and my atheistic relation to a society of Believers, I am sober because of it. I would not wish to live any other way. Before AA, if I was sober I was miserable. After AA, my life is moe enjoyable than I ever imagined.
Dear fellows,
AA is free.
It's where alcoholics share in a common problem AND a common solution.
The solution offered is the 12-step-program which you are ever so free to use - or not use.
God or Higher Power IS a phrase often heard in their rooms BUT not a word mandatory in your own shares.
I don't agree with ALL that is offered and/or suggested AND neither do I believe that (all) my character-defects are the cause of my alcoholism.
I oppose ANYONE who fanatically shoves RELIGION down another persons throat - as I am not only allergic to alcohol as well as to (organised) religion.
But I'm free to choose whether to be in these rooms or go elsewhere.
In The Netherlands we quite value our freedom of choice.
Have a GREAT life, dear people, have a GREAT life!
Peter
Well AA has been great for me just for the fact that I now know I am not the only person who felt the way I did in my addiction. Does it work for everyone? No of course not, but it does work for some. I happen to be jewish and not one person in any meetings I goto have ever tried to convert me to anything else. Now I am sure there are groups that take advantage of there members just like with anything in life but I don't think its fair to call into question the entire program just because of 1 or 2 bad expirences. If it works for you great. Keep coming back, and if it doesn't well good luck to you in your journey. I once heard someone who had been arrested 6 times because of Alcohol related charges say they didnt want to go to AA because they did not want to be brain washed. Someone then said to them well after being arrested so many times don't you think your brain needs a little washinbg?
If AA is such a cult and doesn't do any real good. Why do the courts instist on sending people to AA?
most AA meetings are held in churches, does that mean that those churches are inviting Satan in? Correct me if I am wrong, however when was the last time there was a war because people didn't want to follow the 12 steps? Look around the world micky its narrow minded individuals like yourself that are killing others because they don't believe in the same god.
Metanoia, a Greek word meaning a change of mind. A radical revision and transformation of our whole mental process. That change of mind is something whereby God takes center place in our consciousness, in our awareness, and in our minds.
Metanoia means a new mind. About what? About who we are. ...If tonight you're hearing with your heart, it's time for metanoia. It's time for a new mind about yourself and about life.
Metanoia is the idea of the need for conversion. And this is then recognizing that we don't know, truthfully don't know, God and truthfully don't feel ourselves as God intends us to.
We really need metanoia, which is allowing the grace of God to enter into our lives and teach us how to see ourselves and how to come to the true self.When the authors wrote in Greek about what Jesus really said, they all agree that he preached metanoia. ...one idea is conversion or transformation. Change of heart and, literally, change of mind. "The kingdom of God is at hand," he says, meaning it's at arm's length. But in order for you to grasp it, you have to be able to undergo something like this: a conversion and transformation and change of heart and mind.
Metanoia is a new-minded way of looking at life.
Peace Be With You
Micky
Fuck all this Bible shit. AA is forced religion period! It violates the Constitution whatever is left of after motherfucker bush has fucked it up!
I think it's time to bring this discussion to a close. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
i just find it ironic that everyone that is against AA on this page uses very hateful terms, very judging and condeming. Everyone that is in AA does just the opposite. I don't know about anyone else, but I try to let people do their own thing, if it works for them go for it. If your happy with it, even better. If I'm sober and enjoying life as a result of AA, which I am, please just let me be. I'm not going to sit here and hate on your jesus, so please don't hate on my AA.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguements and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation...
It is a true delight to read all the ravings of "Micky."
Rarely does one encounter someone so absolutely mad as a hatter.
It's a real treat to see this (because of its unsullied purity), and a reminder of just how totally overwhelmed one can be by religious madness.
AA was created before most of what today is called "psychology" existed; to find wisdom, the founders had to look through folk myth, and religion- they were the ONLY sources at the time for tools and techniques to deal with "the mind."
And AA meetings can sometimes have a religious aspect because the LARGE MAJORITY or people in the US & Canada have SOME KIND OF RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
People who come to alcoholism treatment are usually desperate, sad people with ruined lives. If drinking like that was fun, no one would need to quit! And so these people often turn to what they know- they draw comfort from their own religious beliefs.
And there are others to whom any religious notion is anaethema. Still others find the relgious references in AA to be too tolerant, and there see them as blasphemy. For these people, AA holds no attraction, and it seems AA wouldn't help them.
But note this is NOT the "policy" or "plan" of AA. In Chicago, where I live, there are a fair number of ATHEIST meetings where the word GOD is never uttered. Several of these Atheist AA meetings have been meeting continuosuly for 30 years. I don't think people would continue to support meetings if they were useless wastes of time, etc.
National Institutes of Health data indicates that AA has about the same 1-year success rate as other forms of treatment. The same study shows that programs with continuous aftercare or group participation (like AA) have a 20% improvement in 5 year sobriety results. So, even though the old AA guys didn;t have the benefit of modern science the way doctors today do, they still managed to develop a program that is as effective as anything available today. In the meantime, MILLIONS have recovered uysing these methods. True, for millions it was NOT effective. But that is true of all modalities of treatment. READ THE NIH STUDIES.
And there is one very important fact to mention: AA is FREE. Many people who need to quit drinking have NO MONEY NO JOB NO HEALTH INSURANCE- and so NO WAY to get ANY kind of treatment!
There are a few other free treatment options, such as Rational Recovery and Secular Organization for Sobriety, as well as some medical treatment, but the VAST MAJORITY of free help comes from AA. In Chicago there are are over 3,000 meetings a week.
No prgram works for EVERYONE. There is no 100% cure rate for the disease of addiction. The same is true of many illnesses, such as cancer. Just because a given treatment doesn't work in 100% of the cases doesn't mean it is without value. Chemotherapy often doesn;t work, and cancer patients relapse. But I don't see anyone credible calling for the elimination of chemotherapy....
Oh, and contrary to what Penn Gillette says, there is PLENTY of research to show that addiction is a DISEASE and not a FAILURE OF WILL or a BAD CHOICE. I know Penn is a graduate of CLOWN COLLEGE, but even such an AUGUST AUTHORITY must yield to hundreds of pages of PEER REVIEWED STUDY.
And as regards AA's view of "powerlessness" let's try this out: let's say you have septicemia. Now, use your "power" or your "will" to stop the septicemia. YOU WILL FIND THAT YOU ARE POWERLESS TO STOP IT. You will need help to recover. Antibiotics and medical support will be necessary. So, where's your notions of POWER here?
Since addiction is a disease, your "willpower" is just as useless in overcoming the FUNDAMENTAL aspects of addiction, such as the brain chemistry and neurostructure changes. Given an opportunity, the brain can begin to heal, but few true addicts can stay away from the substances that their brain is telling them are necessary. You need help - support- for that. Also, many addicts have gotten into some very destructive patterns of thought- and here again the group dynamic of a support meeting can provide cognitive therapy to help change that. But these things don't come from WILLPOWER, they come from HELP. These are the basics of ANY treatment method, AA or medical-based.
when i drink, fear is gone. is AA about confronting fear?
The best thing I ever did was go to AA. The second best thing I ever did was to STOP going to AA.
I haven't been to a meeting for three years. For me it was impossible to have the life I wanted sitting in the meetings of AA. After 8 years of meetings I felt I had 'peaked' so to speak, and was now 'coming down' the other side. I didn't want to be exposed to what I heard any longer, the cycle of people in and out the door, misery, happiness, all of it. Too much for me to take. And of course I realised that I was only going out of fear, because I had heard that if I stopped going I would drink and die. I don't drink now and I don't go to meetings. I wanted peace and sanity and I couldn't find it being exposed to what the meetings offered up night after night.
However, it got me sober, so I still suggest it to people who inquire about it, who think they might have problems with booze. It is a good way to get sober, but not a good way to get sane.
Micky, you need help. Medical and Pharmaceutical. Oh, yeah, and a LIFE!
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