To be more accurate, my position is that the only scientifically viable claim is that the "first cell" arose thru natural means i.e. physics and chemistry.
I agree that's the only scientifically viable current theory, since there's never been a recorded "existence proof" of something arising by supernatural means.
The metadata on this are pretty conclusive. With real stuff like stars and galaxies, the more opportunity to observe, the more you observe. With non-real stuff like Nessie, the more opportunity to observe, the *less* you observe. There are satellites and security cameras all over the world now. Anyone seen anyone making loaves and fishes for the multitudes, walking on water, or virgin births of male children lately?
That "prophecy" is what you offer as proof that there is an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent god that created the universe <10K years ago and is the same depraved, bloodthirsty war god from the old testament? I don't think you have proven your case.
Do the failed prophecies linked to by lutesuite above undermine your case at all?
We call it a dispensation, and regardless of how you look at it, Jerusalem is no longer under the control of Gentiles. - “Hmm, how'd that turn out?”
Very well, as long as you don’t have the kingdom confused with the second coming. Certainly much better than origin of life research is going. - “to show *Joseph* as being from David's lineage…”
Two human parents, two Davidic genealogies, all credentials in order.
Those are all really tired ‘arguments’. You’d best keep your eyes open. Wars and rumors of wars are not rare these days.
Remember, boys and girls, "prediction and prophecy are not the same thing." As Wikipedia puts it:
In science, a prediction is a rigorous, often quantitative, statement, forecasting what would happen under specific conditions; for example, if an apple fell from a tree it would be attracted towards the center of the earth by gravity with a specified and constant acceleration. The scientific method is built on testing statements that are logical consequences of scientific theories. This is done through repeatable experiments or observational studies. A scientific theory which is contradicted by observations and evidence will be rejected. New theories that generate many new predictions can more easily be supported or falsified.
txpiper is not talking about that. He's talking about "prophecy", which is not the same thing. Prophecy is something he finds very amusing but which, otherwise, seems to be entirely useless.
"txpiper is not talking about that. He's talking about "prophecy", which is not the same thing"
That is correct. The 2600 year-old declaration recorded by Isaiah saying that there would be a second recovery of remnant Jews wasn't a quantitative statement forecasting something that would happen under specific conditions.
"Of course not. There are lots of things still in the works..."
So all of the prophecies that aren't true just haven't been realized, yet, is that what you are saying?
What about all the bogus prophecies that can't be fulfilled?
When Isaiah made his great prophecy, in all of the places he mentioned, why didn't he mention any place in North America, or Europe, or Asia where Jews were residing? You know, there are Jews all over the world that don't live in Israel, so Isaiah is worng about that, isn't he?
lutesuite- You will have to provide some sort of actual quote as I fear I do not recognize any of the things you attribute to me as things I have said.
What I think I said is I don’t know how the first life form (or cell) came into being and I am waiting for experimental demonstration before I decide how it happened.
Has anyone demonstrated abiogenesis? No Has anyone demonstrated some ‘magic’ did it? No Has anyone demonstrated god did it? No Has anyone demonstrated some supernatural entity did it? No
The only demonstration of the origin of life is that life comes from life (or more precisely cells come from cells). That’s all I know about it.
What did I say that makes you think otherwise? I’m seriously at a loss here.
judmarc- Are you suggesting quantum mechanics is non- local as opposed to non-real? Or do you go with some third option here? I think you know exactly what I mean when I say the quanta are not ‘real’ between measurements, so why pretend otherwise? I don’t really understand that.
You seem to think I have claimed that something supernatural was involved in the origins of life. Could you provide an actual quote that lead you to believe that? I’m curious.
And there is no need to pretend you don’t know what it means that quanta are not ‘real’ between measurements. Goodness gracious.
No? So you think it is possible, given the available evidence, that life has existed for as long as the universe has? You must, since that is the only conclusion one can draw from that statement. Unless you don't understand what the term "abiogenesis" means.
Besides that, you have forgotten to list some other important fact:
Has anyone demonstrated "magic"? No. Has anyone demonstrated god? No. Has anyone demonstrated some supernatural entity? No. Has anyone demonstrated chemistry and physics?
Are you suggesting quantum mechanics is non- local as opposed to non-real? Or do you go with some third option here?
Look, if you don't understand quantum mechanics, then don't try and act like you do. Throwing around a bunch of words you don't understand impresses no one.
That is correct. The 2600 year-old declaration recorded by Isaiah saying that there would be a second recovery of remnant Jews wasn't a quantitative statement forecasting something that would happen under specific conditions.
I'm glad we're in agreement. So, to clarify further:
An example of a prediction would be: "When I let go of this apple, it will fall to the earth with an acceleration of 9.8 m/s^2." And, if that doesn't happen, the prediction is falsified.
Prophecy, OTOH, is saying, "When I let go of this apple, it will go down, up, left, right forward, backwards, some other direction at an angle to all those, at some speed or another." And, if when you let go of the apple it just stays hanging in mid air, you say, "See? That's what I said would happen."
“So all of the prophecies that aren't true just haven't been realized, yet, is that what you are saying?”
Well, yes. That should stand to reason. - “What about all the bogus prophecies that can't be fulfilled?”
You’ll have to give me some examples. - “When Isaiah made his great prophecy, in all of the places he mentioned, why didn't he mention any place in North America, or Europe, or Asia where Jews were residing?”
The short answer is:
“…and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.”
The long answer is rather complicated. - “You know, there are Jews all over the world that don't live in Israel, so Isaiah is worng about that, isn't he?”
No. It isn’t necessary for every last blood Israelite (it is not just about tribe-of-Judah Jews) in the entire world to be involved. That is not what “the remnant of His people” means. - “What won't I approve of?”
Just hours before the crucifixion, Jesus Christ responded to questions posed by His disciples; “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”. His responses are recorded in Matthew 24&25, Mark 13 and Luke 21. I wouldn’t expect any of it to make sense to you, and I wouldn’t expect you to like any of it, either.
“why was it so important that Joseph's lineage be Davidic?”
Well, for one reason, the Messiah was supposed to be born in Bethlehem. Joseph’s ancestry is what caused that to happen:
”3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. 4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) 5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.”
"Stand to reason." Honestly, folks, you couldn't make this up."
It's amazing how religion has short-circuited tx's brain. Days ago in this thread he was waxing skeptical about evolution, moving the goalposts with every explanation and demanding fine details for every step in the origins of life. But when it comes to the false prophecies of the bible, any lame rationalization will work.
" I wouldn’t expect any of it to make sense to you, and I wouldn’t expect you to like any of it, either."
You assume I don't know much about the bible and the gospels. Bad assumption.
Jesus said he would return within the lifetime of his apostles/disciples. That didn't happen. You may not like that (that's an example of a prophecy that can't now be fulfilled), but I still don't see your reasoning behind why I would not like it or approve if it.
"No. It isn’t necessary for every last blood Israelite (it is not just about tribe-of-Judah Jews) in the entire world to be involved."
How do you know that? And if that is the case, why not? And if it were a true prophecy, how come all the places mentioned are just those known to Bronze Age Middle Eastern goatherders, rather than any reflection of the real world outside their knowledge? Some of the places mentioned don't exist any more as human political entities. Why didn't Isaiah prophesy any of that?
Of course the simple and common-sense explanations for the necessity to claim Davidic lineage for Joseph and Jesus apparently talking to himself on the Cross are that (1) the virgin birth was not universally accepted in Christianity until the 2nd century, and (2) the concept of the Trinity as we know it today wasn't formalized until the 4th century. So the Gospel writers wouldn't have been viewing things in these contexts since they couldn't predict the fut - oh, wait....
“During the crucifixion Jesus, a practicing Jew his entire life, said, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?"
I guess he just thought it was an appropriate moment to talk to himself.”
He was speaking to His Father from His humanity. His divine nature was set aside while He was doing His job.
Psalm 22 opens with the words you quote. It anticipated the crucifixion a thousand years before it occurred, and it describes the perspective of Christ while he was on the cross. Most everything in these verses has a clear fulfillment available in the gospel accounts:
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. 7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. 12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
None of this (or Psalm 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.) had any meaning at all until after the crucifixion took place. There is no record of any of these things happening to David.
“Jesus said he would return within the lifetime of his apostles/disciples.”
No, that is not what He said. - “How do you know that? And if that is the case, why not?”
Because not every Jew returned from Babylon. - “Some of the places mentioned don't exist any more as human political entities. Why didn't Isaiah prophesy any of that?”
Why should he have? The point of the regathering is the destination.
Ezekiel 11: 16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come. 17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
‘Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.’ ‘And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.’ Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
“ ‘Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.’ [Matthew 16:28]
‘And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.’ “ [Mark 9:1]
Also:
“But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27”
The issue is what the coming of the kingdom means. It is obviously not the Second Coming, since it has not happened yet. This was about the Transfiguration, as Peter explained not long before his death:
13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle [human body], to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
If you insist that someone had to see the Second Coming before they died, John saw it. He recorded what he saw in Revelation 19. - “Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”
This doesn’t mention the Second Advent occuring within the lifetime of his apostles/disciples. It only says that when if happens, Caiaphas will see it. Perhaps there is a picture window in Sheol. - “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.” [Matthew 24:34]
You can approach this from several different directions.
genea has several different meanings. In the NASB, ‘generation’ is footnoted as meaning ‘race’.
He could easily have been talking here about the people that would witness the things he has just described. He didn’t say “your generation”.
Just hours before this, in chapter 23, He uses ‘generation’ to represent not just the Pharisees He was speaking to, but everybody like them going all the way back to Cain:
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Take your pick, but the bottom line is that none of the things mentioned in the Olivet Discourse have happened. We could be seeing staging, but the show has not really started.
The Mount Transfiguration happened 6 days after Jesus said "some of you standing here will not taste death." WOW JESUS! It's been 6 day and im still alive! What an amazing prophet! Also it says SOME would be alive... So which of the disciples died before that event? None. All were alive. Also they didn't see Jesus coming and rewarding everyone according to their works. They saw Moses and Elias.
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. 28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Either Jesus came back already or these passages in the the Bible are failures.
229 comments :
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 229 of 229To be more accurate, my position is that the only scientifically viable claim is that the "first cell" arose thru natural means i.e. physics and chemistry.
I agree that's the only scientifically viable current theory, since there's never been a recorded "existence proof" of something arising by supernatural means.
The metadata on this are pretty conclusive. With real stuff like stars and galaxies, the more opportunity to observe, the more you observe. With non-real stuff like Nessie, the more opportunity to observe, the *less* you observe. There are satellites and security cameras all over the world now. Anyone seen anyone making loaves and fishes for the multitudes, walking on water, or virgin births of male children lately?
tx,
That "prophecy" is what you offer as proof that there is an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent god that created the universe <10K years ago and is the same depraved, bloodthirsty war god from the old testament? I don't think you have proven your case.
Do the failed prophecies linked to by lutesuite above undermine your case at all?
"Do the failed prophecies linked to by lutesuite above undermine your case at all?"
Of course not. There are lots of things still in the works...things you won't approve of at all.
“He indicated a *very* finite period of time”
We call it a dispensation, and regardless of how you look at it, Jerusalem is no longer under the control of Gentiles.
-
“Hmm, how'd that turn out?”
Very well, as long as you don’t have the kingdom confused with the second coming. Certainly much better than origin of life research is going.
-
“to show *Joseph* as being from David's lineage…”
Two human parents, two Davidic genealogies, all credentials in order.
Those are all really tired ‘arguments’. You’d best keep your eyes open. Wars and rumors of wars are not rare these days.
Remember, boys and girls, "prediction and prophecy are not the same thing." As Wikipedia puts it:
In science, a prediction is a rigorous, often quantitative, statement, forecasting what would happen under specific conditions; for example, if an apple fell from a tree it would be attracted towards the center of the earth by gravity with a specified and constant acceleration. The scientific method is built on testing statements that are logical consequences of scientific theories. This is done through repeatable experiments or observational studies. A scientific theory which is contradicted by observations and evidence will be rejected. New theories that generate many new predictions can more easily be supported or falsified.
txpiper is not talking about that. He's talking about "prophecy", which is not the same thing. Prophecy is something he finds very amusing but which, otherwise, seems to be entirely useless.
OHMYGOD! The bible predicts a WAR would happen sometime?! What are the odds of that coming true?
(Sorry, my mistake. It doesn't "predict" a war. It prophesies a war. Not the same thing.)
"txpiper is not talking about that. He's talking about "prophecy", which is not the same thing"
That is correct. The 2600 year-old declaration recorded by Isaiah saying that there would be a second recovery of remnant Jews wasn't a quantitative statement forecasting something that would happen under specific conditions.
tx sez,
"Of course not. There are lots of things still in the works..."
So all of the prophecies that aren't true just haven't been realized, yet, is that what you are saying?
What about all the bogus prophecies that can't be fulfilled?
When Isaiah made his great prophecy, in all of the places he mentioned, why didn't he mention any place in North America, or Europe, or Asia where Jews were residing? You know, there are Jews all over the world that don't live in Israel, so Isaiah is worng about that, isn't he?
"things you won't approve of at all."
What won't I approve of?
Very well, as long as you don’t have the kingdom confused with the second coming.
We wouldn't want to do that, after the scriptwriters ordered a sequel when the lead actor blew it the first time.
Two human parents, two Davidic genealogies, all credentials in order.
*One* human parent, *two* Davidic genealogies - why was it so important that Joseph's lineage be Davidic?
lutesuite-
You will have to provide some sort of actual quote as I fear I do not recognize any of the things you attribute to me as things I have said.
What I think I said is I don’t know how the first life form (or cell) came into being and I am waiting for experimental demonstration before I decide how it happened.
Has anyone demonstrated abiogenesis? No
Has anyone demonstrated some ‘magic’ did it? No
Has anyone demonstrated god did it? No
Has anyone demonstrated some supernatural entity did it? No
The only demonstration of the origin of life is that life comes from life (or more precisely cells come from cells).
That’s all I know about it.
What did I say that makes you think otherwise? I’m seriously at a loss here.
judmarc-
Are you suggesting quantum mechanics is non- local as opposed to non-real? Or do you go with some third option here? I think you know exactly what I mean when I say the quanta are not ‘real’ between measurements, so why pretend otherwise? I don’t really understand that.
You seem to think I have claimed that something supernatural was involved in the origins of life.
Could you provide an actual quote that lead you to believe that? I’m curious.
And there is no need to pretend you don’t know what it means that quanta are not ‘real’ between measurements.
Goodness gracious.
Has anyone demonstrated abiogenesis? No
No? So you think it is possible, given the available evidence, that life has existed for as long as the universe has? You must, since that is the only conclusion one can draw from that statement. Unless you don't understand what the term "abiogenesis" means.
Besides that, you have forgotten to list some other important fact:
Has anyone demonstrated "magic"? No.
Has anyone demonstrated god? No.
Has anyone demonstrated some supernatural entity? No.
Has anyone demonstrated chemistry and physics?
I'll let you answer that last one yourself.
Are you suggesting quantum mechanics is non- local as opposed to non-real? Or do you go with some third option here?
Look, if you don't understand quantum mechanics, then don't try and act like you do. Throwing around a bunch of words you don't understand impresses no one.
That is correct. The 2600 year-old declaration recorded by Isaiah saying that there would be a second recovery of remnant Jews wasn't a quantitative statement forecasting something that would happen under specific conditions.
I'm glad we're in agreement. So, to clarify further:
An example of a prediction would be: "When I let go of this apple, it will fall to the earth with an acceleration of 9.8 m/s^2." And, if that doesn't happen, the prediction is falsified.
Prophecy, OTOH, is saying, "When I let go of this apple, it will go down, up, left, right forward, backwards, some other direction at an angle to all those, at some speed or another." And, if when you let go of the apple it just stays hanging in mid air, you say, "See? That's what I said would happen."
About right, txipiper?
“So all of the prophecies that aren't true just haven't been realized, yet, is that what you are saying?”
Well, yes. That should stand to reason.
-
“What about all the bogus prophecies that can't be fulfilled?”
You’ll have to give me some examples.
-
“When Isaiah made his great prophecy, in all of the places he mentioned, why didn't he mention any place in North America, or Europe, or Asia where Jews were residing?”
The short answer is:
“…and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.”
The long answer is rather complicated.
-
“You know, there are Jews all over the world that don't live in Israel, so Isaiah is worng about that, isn't he?”
No. It isn’t necessary for every last blood Israelite (it is not just about tribe-of-Judah Jews) in the entire world to be involved. That is not what “the remnant of His people” means.
-
“What won't I approve of?”
Just hours before the crucifixion, Jesus Christ responded to questions posed by His disciples; “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”. His responses are recorded in Matthew 24&25, Mark 13 and Luke 21. I wouldn’t expect any of it to make sense to you, and I wouldn’t expect you to like any of it, either.
“So all of the prophecies that aren't true just haven't been realized, yet, is that what you are saying?”
Well, yes. That should stand to reason.
"Stand to reason." Honestly, folks, you couldn't make this up.
-
“why was it so important that Joseph's lineage be Davidic?”
Well, for one reason, the Messiah was supposed to be born in Bethlehem. Joseph’s ancestry is what caused that to happen:
”3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.”
lutesuite,
"Stand to reason." Honestly, folks, you couldn't make this up."
It's amazing how religion has short-circuited tx's brain. Days ago in this thread he was waxing skeptical about evolution, moving the goalposts with every explanation and demanding fine details for every step in the origins of life. But when it comes to the false prophecies of the bible, any lame rationalization will work.
Right, because God couldn't have cause Mary to be espoused to anyone else in Bethlehem.
Just hours before the crucifixion, Jesus Christ responded to questions posed by His disciples
During the crucifixion Jesus, a practicing Jew his entire life, said, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?"
I guess he just thought it was an appropriate moment to talk to himself.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
tx,
" I wouldn’t expect any of it to make sense to you, and I wouldn’t expect you to like any of it, either."
You assume I don't know much about the bible and the gospels. Bad assumption.
Jesus said he would return within the lifetime of his apostles/disciples. That didn't happen. You may not like that (that's an example of a prophecy that can't now be fulfilled), but I still don't see your reasoning behind why I would not like it or approve if it.
"No. It isn’t necessary for every last blood Israelite (it is not just about tribe-of-Judah Jews) in the entire world to be involved."
How do you know that? And if that is the case, why not? And if it were a true prophecy, how come all the places mentioned are just those known to Bronze Age Middle Eastern goatherders, rather than any reflection of the real world outside their knowledge? Some of the places mentioned don't exist any more as human political entities. Why didn't Isaiah prophesy any of that?
Of course the simple and common-sense explanations for the necessity to claim Davidic lineage for Joseph and Jesus apparently talking to himself on the Cross are that (1) the virgin birth was not universally accepted in Christianity until the 2nd century, and (2) the concept of the Trinity as we know it today wasn't formalized until the 4th century. So the Gospel writers wouldn't have been viewing things in these contexts since they couldn't predict the fut - oh, wait....
“During the crucifixion Jesus, a practicing Jew his entire life, said, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?"
I guess he just thought it was an appropriate moment to talk to himself.”
He was speaking to His Father from His humanity. His divine nature was set aside while He was doing His job.
Psalm 22 opens with the words you quote. It anticipated the crucifixion a thousand years before it occurred, and it describes the perspective of Christ while he was on the cross. Most everything in these verses has a clear fulfillment available in the gospel accounts:
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
None of this (or Psalm 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.) had any meaning at all until after the crucifixion took place. There is no record of any of these things happening to David.
“Jesus said he would return within the lifetime of his apostles/disciples.”
No, that is not what He said.
-
“How do you know that? And if that is the case, why not?”
Because not every Jew returned from Babylon.
-
“Some of the places mentioned don't exist any more as human political entities. Why didn't Isaiah prophesy any of that?”
Why should he have? The point of the regathering is the destination.
Ezekiel 11:
16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
"No, that is not what He said"
‘Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.’
‘And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.’
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
“ ‘Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.’ [Matthew 16:28]
‘And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.’ “ [Mark 9:1]
Also:
“But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27”
The issue is what the coming of the kingdom means. It is obviously not the Second Coming, since it has not happened yet. This was about the Transfiguration, as Peter explained not long before his death:
13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle [human body], to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
If you insist that someone had to see the Second Coming before they died, John saw it. He recorded what he saw in Revelation 19.
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“Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”
This doesn’t mention the Second Advent occuring within the lifetime of his apostles/disciples. It only says that when if happens, Caiaphas will see it. Perhaps there is a picture window in Sheol.
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“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.” [Matthew 24:34]
You can approach this from several different directions.
genea has several different meanings. In the NASB, ‘generation’ is footnoted as meaning ‘race’.
He could easily have been talking here about the people that would witness the things he has just described. He didn’t say “your generation”.
Just hours before this, in chapter 23, He uses ‘generation’ to represent not just the Pharisees He was speaking to, but everybody like them going all the way back to Cain:
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Take your pick, but the bottom line is that none of the things mentioned in the Olivet Discourse have happened. We could be seeing staging, but the show has not really started.
The Mount Transfiguration happened 6 days after Jesus said "some of you standing here will not taste death." WOW JESUS! It's been 6 day and im still alive! What an amazing prophet! Also it says SOME would be alive... So which of the disciples died before that event? None. All were alive. Also they didn't see Jesus coming and rewarding everyone according to their works. They saw Moses and Elias.
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Either Jesus came back already or these passages in the the Bible are failures.
Please terminate this discussion. It has nothing to do with Bill Martin's seminar.
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