More Recent Comments

Saturday, May 16, 2015

The Courtiers start replying

With the publication of Jerry Coyne's new book, Fact vs Faith, you can expect a vigorous response from people of faith and from atheist accommodationists.

Believers will invariably respond with some version of The Courtier’s Reply so, if you don't know what that is, now is the time to read PZ Meyer's blog post from 2006. The argument will be that Jerry and his supporters (I am one) are attacking a strawman version of religion. They will claim that there is a secret, sophisticated version of religion, known only to a few experts, that will counter all of Jerry's arguments.

The fact that this "sophisticated" version of theology begins with the premise that god exists seems to escape them but it turns out that that's the whole point of their argument. They just can't seem to get their head around the real question, "Is the belief in a supernatural being compatible with science as a way of knowing?"

We don't really care if the Bible is viewed as literal truth, poetry, or metaphor. It's still a fairy tale because it describes beings that don't exist.

The Emperor has no clothes so there's no point in arguing like the following passage from PZ Myers' blog post.
I have considered the impudent accusations of Mr Dawkins with exasperation at his lack of serious scholarship. He has apparently not read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor’s boots, nor does he give a moment’s consideration to Bellini’s masterwork, On the Luminescence of the Emperor’s Feathered Hat. We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor’s raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all. He even laughs at the highly popular and most persuasive arguments of his fellow countryman, Lord D. T. Mawkscribbler, who famously pointed out that the Emperor would not wear common cotton, nor uncomfortable polyester, but must, I say must, wear undergarments of the finest silk.
The first Courtier is Timothy Beal, a Biblical scholar at Case Western Reserve University. He writes in The Chronicle of Higher Education: Fundamentally Atheist.

Most of you won't be able to see this article and that's too bad because it would give you a chance to see a Courtier at work. I have neither the time, nor the patience, to deal with his entire piece but here's a bit that gives you the flavor of his argument.
A century later, Darwin is a household name while pretty much nobody outside biblical studies has heard of Wellhausen, let alone Smith, Briggs, or almost any other biblical scholar, past or present, who represents that critical academic tradition. Imagine if every introductory course in evolutionary biology had to start with several weeks on Origin because even its basic approach and ideas were completely unknown to everyone in the class. That’s essentially what most of us in biblical studies have to do every time we teach an introduction to biblical literature. No matter how irrefutable the evidence is that the Bible is a highly complex composition representing the work of literally thousands of hands over thousands of years in innumerable social and cultural-historical contexts, we must concede that the presumptions of biblical inerrancy still carry the day — even among those who reject Christianity and its Bible outright. Indeed, like Biblicist defenders, most critics in the God debates presume that the argument is about whether the Bible is or is not the book that God wrote, a tome of answers without error or contradiction.

Given how entirely invisible academic biblical studies has become to the public, Coyne may be forgiven for showing no awareness of it and its role, alongside evolution, as the enemy against which biblical fundamentalism defined itself. Less forgivable, however, is his apparent refusal to engage the field of academic religious studies at all, especially when a quick walk across campus for a conversation with someone like Jonathan Z. Smith, a historian of religion at the University of Chicago and member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, could have done Coyne’s book a world of good, even if it would also have complicated his bold argument.
Let me make it perfectly clear, even if Jerry won't. I don't give a damn about Bible studies. I'm not interested in debating whether gods wrote the Bible or not. It would be like debating whether Bilbo Baggins wrote The Hobbit.1 Or whether the Emperor's underwear was silk or cotton.2

Academic biblical studies are not invisible, they are just irrelevant.

Jerry Coyne has immersed himself in "sophisticated theology" over the past few years and found it wanting. I've also read the most popular books and learned the arguments. There's nothing there. There's no sophisticated evidence for the existence of gods that theologians have kept hidden under a bushel. It's just apologetics.

Science is the most successful way of knowing that humans have ever invented. It relies absolutely on evidence. You don't believe in something unless you have evidence. You can believe in gods, hobbits, and fairy tales if you want but that belief conflicts with the scientific way of knowing.3 No amount of obfuscation and attempts at diversion is going to hide that fact. It's about time that serious theologians start defending their belief in gods instead of wasting their time on other things.

I'm not holding my breath. I suspect there will be many Courtiers replying in the next few weeks. There will also be a fair number of atheists defending the Courtiers.


1. Bilbo doesn't exist.
2. Neither does Hans Christian Anderson's Emperor.
3. And it is not a valid other way of knowing.

267 comments :

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 267 of 267
John Harshman said...

The suggestion that atheists should shut up for political advantage has certainly been made before. I don't buy it.

John Harshman said...

I was referring mostly to the idea that god must be undetectable, doesn't act, and is not a person. Who are you quoting and why does it leave off in the middle of a sentence?

Unknown said...

I was quoting Robert Baron.
Sorry about the cut off, cut and paste can be treacherous.
Here is the rest computers, and God — despite the obvious differences among them — have at least in common their status as beings. Aquinas expresses the difference that obtains between God and creatures through the technical language of essence and existence

More here, http://spirituality.ucanews.com/2013/03/03/the-mystery-of-god-2/

Whole lecture here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NMex7qk5GU

Unknown said...

I was referring mostly to the idea that god must be undetectable, doesn't act, and is not a person.

Let me take the last one first, in western religious thought the absolute, ie God is thought of in personal terms, in the east absolute is impersonal. But I was not really talking about God as non personal, but as a non object. So use the language of Nicholas of Cusa.
Not Other is not an other, nor is it other than any other, nor is it an other in an other—for no other reason than that it is Not Other, which can in no way be other, as if it something were lacking to it, as to an other. For an other which is other than something lacks that than which it is other. But Not Other, because it is not other than anything, does not lack anything nor can anything be outside it.

I was not saying that God of non object makes God undetectable, only that because we cannot get outside of God look at as we do any other object, we may not be sure that it is God we are detecting.

This is not by the way pantheism but panentheism, meaning all in God.

Baron translates that as "Though God must be seen as radically not the world God still must be seen as the non other " For Nicholas, nothing can have being outside of God http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cusanus/

Unknown said...

It is not so much political pragmatic. I am assuming that you are all in the US where ‘four in 10 people believe God created humans in their present form about 10,000 years ago'. That is a dreadful state of affairs. Over here in the UK people who believe that kind of thing are on on fringes of religion let alone the largely secular population as a whole. There is no controversy taught our schools because there is no controversy, in society as a whole. There is no need to deal with it.
If there is a controversy, however ill informed it might be, and in the US there seems to be, then perhaps allowing students to explore controversy, is a non threatening way to get them to use their reason to work through it. Its seems like a practical solution to a real problem.
Perhaps it needs to be done in philosophy rather than science.

John Harshman said...

It seems that Aquinas is not in this mystical tradition of panentheism, from what I can tell. Nicholas of Cusa does seem to be in it.

John Harshman said...

There may be more creationism in British schools than you think. I vaguely recall some recent news stories. The situation in the U.S. is clearly appalling, but it has deep historical roots and isn't caused by strident, fanatical New Atheists. "Teach the controversy" is an interesting idea, but who would do it if 60% of biology teachers are creationists, as alleged?

Unknown said...

I would say that he is, but we have to be careful, the word is of modern coinage, by Karl Christian Friedrich Krause in 1828. Its an adjective used to a describe a particular position, so whilst it can be applied backwards as it were, the term word have been alien to both Thomas and Nicholas.
Popular theism, the theism of the man on the Clapham omnibus, is not panentheist. For most people God is out there. But as soon as one begins to think about God's limitlessness, then the God who is only out there no longer makes sense. (I know to many, none of it makes sense). I would say that no classical theologian that I have read conceptualizes God as anything other than limitless, all of them therefore have what we would now call a panentheist view, which essential means that God is in all things but not exhausted by all things.
Thomas is a mystic insofar as he is contemplative, and he begins in an 'agnostic' way by stating what God is not. He does not go as far as Nicholas though who can be seen as a Christian agnostic.

Unknown said...

Those are specific kind of schools, they are not really mainstream, and they have been corrected. But it is worrying, and seems like an import from the other side of the pond I am afraid to say.
I think there may be some pedagogical merit in 'teaching the controversy' its a good way to engage student with the issues, and show them how evolution by natural selection works, by showing why the design argument fails.
But then again I am over here. I remember talking to a bible student from a pentecostal seminary, who had learned in that seminary al the historical critical conclusions about who had written the penteteuch, of J E D and P (its a bit old hat now but its part of introducing the subject). They had to learn it, they would not have got the degree. But then this student told me that the lecturers had told them, of course Moses wrote it really.
When you have teachers who don't accept the scholarship, then you have a problem.
60% you say. That's bad news. No wonder people like Coyne get so cross.

John Harshman said...

The 60% figure has been alleged. I'd like to see the actual study.

Unknown said...

Yes it would represent a greater percentage than the population as a whole, which looks like 40%. Surely amongst biology teachers that cannot be right.

Tom Mueller said...

Hi John

re
The 60% figure has been alleged. I'd like to see the actual study.

cited here on page 322

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674023390

John Harshman said...

Do you have the book? What's the reference for that study?

Tom Mueller said...

Hi John

Oops - my bad...
I managed to get a screen shot of the relevant page.

Check out page 1 here

http://tinyurl.com/lb574ff

Again I am in your debt! This looks like a fantastic book and I am definitely purchasing a copy!

best regards

Tom Mueller said...

John

Just how reliable is the Pew Research Center?

They have a good rep?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pew_Research_Center

John Harshman said...

Now you have to find out what footnote 2 refers to.

Petrushka said...

This isn't theology, but it occurred to me recently that if Jesus had just taught his disciples to do cataract surgery, everyone would be a Christian, and there would be no heretics.

Just a metaphor.

aljones909 said...

"equating evolutionary theory with atheism makes matters impossibly difficult for high school teachers". Evolution does not completely rule out all deity beliefs but it does invalidate the idea that the Bible is the revealed word of a deity. It definitely kills the christian god completely.

Gary Gaulin said...

I can honestly say that have "faith" in a creator that science is for learning more about. The very basics of how our creator works is in part explained using a computer model to demonstrate the basics of what makes genetic and other systems (we developed from) an awesomely intelligent designer. In a preprocessed sensory feedback sort of way our creator has the eyes of all in creation to see through, connecting us all the back to the forces that power the behavior of matter and consciousness. This is compatible with Christian, Islamic and other faiths where it's believed that a pathway to what created us is possible through prayer or directed conscious though.

From my perspective religious expression seems like a germline cell based instinctual knowledge or intuition that comes from billions of years of experience going from one generation to the next. As in religion what most matters are life stages, family and keeping cultural knowledge going by teaching it to next generation.

The existence of religion is scientific evidence for the computer model and theory where that can be expected, no surprise at all it's there. And it is far more scientific to work towards understanding where religion comes from than it is to join the latest to believe it's possible to make human religious expression go away. It has always been a futile effort.

I do not attend church or in the habit of praying but I'm certainly not religiously deprived or against others who search in other places for knowledge pertaining to how we were created.

From my experience: science and religion are very compatible. The conflict between the Atheist religion and their religious rivals is an entirely religious matter that science is unfortunately stuck in the middle of.

SRM said...

The Teach the Controversy as well as the Wedge Strategy would be incoherent and still-born if Evolution was publicly perceived as patently neutral...

The problem is that is wasn't the scientists who brought on this battle, but religionists who from the start recognized the threat posed from the conclusions of science.

Perhaps you suggest that scientists and science communicators should now be doing double-duty ensuring people there is no intersection between evolutionary theory and faith in god. But this is a nearly impossible task given that most people have been told to believe that Adam and Eve, and Jesus dying to atone for the consequences of an original sin, and Noah's ark etc are literally true events, when indeed they cannot possibly be true.

People who are concerned about the maintenance of religious belief are right to be worried about the stripping away of anthropecentric religious narrative. What is eventually left over is a god synonymous with nature and what is lost is power over the hearts and minds of the masses.

Tom Mueller said...

I was trying just that yesterday. I cannot find the specifics when searching PEW

I am just going to purchase the book - it looks like a great read.

Tom Mueller said...

@ SRM

re:
The problem is that is wasn't the scientists who brought on this battle, but religionists who from the start recognized the threat posed from the conclusions of science.

My point exactly, well almost. Only a very small and vocal minority some here want to call "IDiots".

The vast majority of believers who in fact subscribe to Theistic evolution have no problem with anything Larry or others are saying until that is; Faith is equated to superstition or vice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism#Types_of_creationism

re
Perhaps you suggest that scientists and science communicators should now be doing double-duty ensuring people there is no intersection between evolutionary theory and faith in god.

No, all I am saying is that we ignore that small and silly vocal minority and dedicate to them the bandwidth they deserve; i.e. none at all!

re:
People who are concerned about the maintenance of religious belief are right to be worried about the stripping away of anthropecentric religious narrative.

In other words, you too subscribe to the unfortunate (and in my view unnecessary) corollary that evolution is necessarily an attack on ALL faith. Doing some searching in PEW yesterday, I cam across an interesting observation:

Despite the fact that fewer than half of Americans personally believe in evolution, a solid majority over the past 20 years has supported the teaching of alternative accounts of the origins of life, including evolution. Poll questions have typically asked if creationism should be taught along with evolution, and majorities ranging from 57% to 68% say that it should.

http://www.people-press.org/2005/09/28/reading-the-polls-on-evolution-and-creationism/

I find that very interesting. Most of this majority would subscribe to theistic evolution yet are conceding a need to give the extremists their say. I ask you to speculate why that would be. I suggest that if Bill Nye had ignored Ham as not worthy of debate and the scientific community as a whole followed had followed such suit for the long term, we possibly could be having a different discussion.

If the scientific community had followed Ayala's lead by maintaining there is no debate, evolution and faith are neutral wrt each other; we would have deprived the "enemy" of their needed "oxygen" for continued existence i.e front page exultation of the "controversy" that now needs to be taught. I say we should have countered from the outset that was never any controversy and just ignored them.

Please understand, you and I are on the same side. Unfortunately in America, these considerations have become political. I say that we got played like fiddles here and should now regret the outcome.

Speaking anecdotally here: I have found that in my own classroom (in a very conservative bible-belt community) students persistently remained obtuse to the cogency of evolution until I changed my approach to a less combative tone. My last class reported not a single negative comment contrary to evolution. Quite surprising considering precedent.

Many students needed to shift their religious views in order to do so; they shifted towards a Theistic vs literal interpretation. I am sure their "shift" in weltanschauung will continue. If I had started with all faith is superstition and vice, or even a less strident version thereof, as in previous years, I would have lost them at the outset as occurred in previous years when students perceived evolution as an attack on faith.

I assure you the local pastor is far more annoyed with me now than in previous years. His ability to perform damage control from his POV has been denied.

I appreciate all just mentioned is anecdotal, but I ask whether or not any extrapolation can be made here.

Tom Mueller said...

@ SRM - a clarification

re: Most of this majority would subscribe to theistic evolution yet are conceding a need to give the extremists their say.

The "majority" I was referring to of course would be the milder and less obnoxious "Evolution Theists" with whom we should be having no dispute that nonetheless must seem to now be leaning (how else to explain those numbers) towards "teach the controversy".

I concede that I am offering an interpretation through the lens of that other "study" John is calling me out on.

I still suggest that the American experience is "different" than elsewhere (Europe for example) because of different causal antecedents. Those unfortunate antecedents being the over-abundance of "oxygen" I mentioned just above.

again - I also concede my thesis is not profound.

Larry Moran said...

Tom Mueller says.

If the scientific community had followed Ayala's lead by maintaining there is no debate, evolution and faith are neutral wrt each other; we would have deprived the "enemy" of their needed "oxygen" for continued existence ...

But if I did that I would be lying and so would Jerry Coyne and many other scientists and philosophers. Maybe we could avoid lying by sticking strictly to "evolution" and not "science" in general but that would be very hard.

There's a movement among teachers to teach the nature of science (NOS) even in high school. If you do that, there's no avoiding the argument made by many leading atheist scientists that science and religion are incompatible.

At some point, students need to hear this. How long would you continue to shield them from this viewpoint if you had your druthers?

Jmac said...

Larry, It's nice to see you finally back but I think that you have some serious work to be done at: http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/bad-math-why-larry-morans-im-not-a-darwinian-isnt-a-valid-reply-to-meyers-argument/#comment-566145

Tom Mueller said...

Hi Larry

I think you are missing my point.

re: Following Ayala's lead:

But if I did that I would be lying ...

no... you would not be lying. You could honestly report that you do not hold Ayala's POV but that sauce for the goose also happens to be sauce for the gander.

Just as religion has no place in the high school science classroom, so too attacks on religion have no place in the science classroom.

All you need to do (now I risk Oberski's/Diogenes' wrath) is truthfully report that great minds and profound thinkers (ergo my tip of the hat to Ayala) do in fact earnestly embrace both religion and evolution. You would then be truthfully reporting the truth as observed, even if you yourself do not agree with Ayala's particular POV.

Public declarations that religious and empirical POVs are mutually exclusive and declaring that your understanding of Evolutionary Theory indeed is an attack on religion, you have provided aid and succor to our common enemy.

At a minimum, we should all agree that such discussions are important and worthy of discussion but ultra vires in high school classrooms; perhaps not university lecture halls and definitely not public fora such as this excellent blog of yours.

Most high school science teachers I know, who actually understand this issue at the depth you would have us undertake, actually embrace a Popperian stance.

Popper emphasized that there are meaningful theories that are not scientific explaining his contention with logical positivism.

You may disagree and that would put you in good company, such as A.J. Ayer.

Those high school teachers who do not understand this issue at the depth you would have us undertake, are (in growing numbers) advocating a "teach the controversy" stance. I am horrified!

I am not suggesting as John implied:

The suggestion that atheists should shut up for political advantage has certainly been made before. I don't buy it.

All I am suggesting is that we divorce your particular epistemology from politics and high school curricula. Doing otherwise plays to the enemy's advantage. I am suggesting that if we were to defer to Popper in the high school classroom, there would be no conflict between religion and science and empiricism would in fact be neutral vis-à-vis faith.

Different rules of engagement could occur outside the high school classroom. Of course my suggestions would elicit the greatest condemnations not from you and John but rather the instigators of the "Wedge strategym" and the "teach the controversy" sophistry.

I hope I have sufficiently extricated myself from weasel territory.


John Harshman said...

If all you're saying at great length is that a high school biology class is not the proper place to discuss the conflict between science and religion, I would agree. It's also not the proper place to claim that there's no conflict.

Anonymous said...

You're too much of an idiot Gary.

Gary Gaulin said...

Then I am unworthy to wear undergarments of the finest silk ever to have been forged by the hammer of natural selection..
-
Or in other words: much of the problem I have is with the wonderfully phrased Darwinian generalizations that sound nice but do not explain much having become disturbingly annoying to those who need more "science" than that, to cover all their religious and/or scientific needs.

Larry Moran said...

No, that's not all he's saying. He's saying that it's okay to promote HIS view by telling students that there are great minds and profound thinkers who embrace science and religion but it's not okay to tell students that most great modern scientists are/were atheists because they cannot reconcile science and religion.

Tom Mueller said...

Hi John Hi Larry

Re:
If all you're saying at great length is that a high school biology class is not the proper place to discuss the conflict between science and religion, I would agree. It's also not the proper place to claim that there's no conflict.

Well almost.

If I am not mistaken, writers such as Coyne, Dennet and Dawkins etc maintain that Science and Faith represent irreconcilable approaches to knowing. Compartmentalization is really not an option because science and faith are in competition at best if not blatant conflict.

I understand you both belong in this camp.

My point is (and I repeat) not very profound. Your camp actually represents a minority in the scientific community (albeit a 2/3 majority among academic Biologists - see citation at bottom).

Although my credentials pale in comparison to John's and to Larry’s, I take comfort in the fact that I belong in the same camp as Francisco Ayala and Stephen Jay Gould. I cite Gould because not only are his credentials better than mine, he also eloquently elucidated his position better than I could ever hope to manage. (I hope I have managed to assuage Oberski/Diogenes by continuing with Gould’s extension of Popper)

John already mentioned Gould’s Non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA) above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-overlapping_magisteria

Gould is very clear on the subject:

"NOMA represents a principled position on moral and intellectual grounds, not a mere diplomatic stance."

Furthermore

"Science tries to document the factual character of the natural world, and to develop theories that coordinate and explain these facts. Religion, on the other hand, operates in the equally important, but utterly different, realm of human purposes, meanings, and values—subjects that the factual domain of science might illuminate, but can never resolve." … "These two magisteria do not overlap, nor do they encompass all inquiry (consider, for example, the magisterium of art and the meaning of beauty)."

The National Academy of Sciences adopted a similar stance. Its publication Science and Creationism stated that

"Scientists, like many others, are touched with awe at the order and complexity of nature. Indeed, many scientists are deeply religious. But science and religion occupy two separate realms of human experience. Demanding that they be combined detracts from the glory of each."

I respectfully submit that you both may represent a “fringe group” within the scientific community. At least that is what I teach my students.
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=6024

So in fact - I am NOT promoting MY view as Larry accuses; but rather the official position of the National Academy of Sciences.

I also teach that there is a debate but not necessarily a conflict even though some scientists (such as Larry and John) do believe there is an existential conflict. Their position is principled and worthy of respect but NOT unanimous within the scientific community. On that point there is no debate - just ask Kenneth Miller. (so sorry Steve/Diogenes, I did it again - I appealed to authority by citing a third party; but John does ask me to back up my conclusions with appropriate citations. More below.)

IMHO – the debate is about whether or not there really is a conflict. While some are in Gerry Coyne’s camp whereas others are in Behe’s camp, both (ironically enough) embrace the identical false major premise (to hear Gould tell it). The majority of scientists would appear to fall in neither camp.

Different polls vary and seem to contradict each other, but it could be argued that generally about 1/3 of scientists are atheists, 1/3 agnostic, and 1/3 have some version of a belief in God. I direct your attention to this study and the interesting graph on page 5.

http://religion.ssrc.org/reforum/Gross_Simmons.pdf

John Harshman said...

I respectfully submit that you both may represent a “fringe group” within the scientific community. At least that is what I teach my students.

What business do you have teaching your students any such thing?

And are you really making both an argument from authority and an argument from popularity? (Hint, yes, you are.)

Gould is wrong, wrong, wrong. Religions all -- or almost all -- make claims about objective truth. It's philosophy, not just religion, that operates in the realm of human purposes, meanings, and values. Religion, on the other hand, derives all this from a crucial premise, that god exists and is telling you stuff. And that's where NOMA falls apart. It makes claims about objective truth that can indeed be studied scientifically. (By the way, science can in fact study values, including their evolutionary origins.)

The study you cite isn't of scientists; it's of college professors. There's a difference. And in fact the only scientists that paper mentions are biologists. Kind of strange, actually.

Tom Mueller said...

hi John

Re
What business do you have teaching your students any such thing?


Because the American National Academy of Sciences has written that the evidence for evolution can be fully compatible with religious faith,"

Gould is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Yes, I respect your minority opinion. As a matter of fact I am inclined to believe your scepticism may prove correct. That said, I am obliged to teach that:

1 yes there is a debate regarding the relationship between religion and science


2 while some scientists (such as yourself) believe there is an irreconcilable conflict, the concensus within the scientific community is that there exists no conflict

Unknown said...

If you interpreted my comments on the wiki definitions as shifting my position, you have interpreted in a way I did not intend.

But let's look at this statement: "Yet it does provably exist."
There are two very problematic words in this: "provably" and "exist". How do you prove something in science? The last I checked we proposed theories and they remained valid until falsified. Proof is something that is not available to us. And whether something exists or not is an ontological question. Again, that's not something science does.

Let's look at how science operates. We postulate theories and then check whether they are consistent with observations. If two theories agree on all predictions about observations, we can not distinguish between them empirically - either both are contradicted by observations or neither are.
For that reason I would hold that two theories that make the same predictions are merely two formulations of the same theory.
Here's where physicalist ontologies run into trouble, because they generally do hold that theoretical object exist. But consider this case from Newtonisn physics (picked for simplicities sake, we can easily find other examples):
I have a system consisting of N objects. I can describe the system using the Lagrange formalism with the state space having 6N+1 dimensions. Here each object has a position in 3 dimensions, a velocity in 3 dimensions and finally there is a global time. I can alternatively use the Hamiltonian formalism, again with a 6N+1 dimensional phase space, but I replace the velocities with momenta. In both cases I have fully described the physical system and furthermore the two descriptions agree precisely.
The question the physicalist has to answer is this:
Are momenta real or velocities?
There is no empirical data that could favor one over the other, so that means that there has to be some other criterium. And if both are real, then the full deswcription of that physical system would have a 9N+1 dimensional phase space, which is not parsimonious. Since we demand parsimony from scientific theories, arguing for a non-parsimonious reality means that there will be things beyond scientific theories.
So that's non-trivial.

Now, the rub here is that nature is defined by the content of scientific theories and that scientific theories are concerned with observables. We can also easily see that for any set of observations there are scientific theories that are not contradicted. We can always find a new theory that encompasses a novel and unexpected result. For this reason any deity that had an observable effect would be a part of nature. Basically we would be dealing with equivocation. If somebody had simply called what made Voltas frogs move god, they would have given electromagneticism a novel name, but that certainly isn't a theist conception of a god.

When you discuss "beings with powers and knowledge we'd consider God-like", what precisely are you talking about? You are not talking about the concept of god held by the Abrahamic traditions. You are describing entities that are pretty much superheroes. And while pagan deities are pretty much that (just ask Thor), it's something that the Abrahamic religions have explicitly denied. They call it idolatry and there's a commandment about that. And while sure, the IDiots god is like that, it's not something that is taken seriously by theology. You ask a catholic theologian how the catholic faith differs from the DI and they will say something to the effect of "We believe in god, they believe in Batman".

steve oberski said...

If I recall correctly I have pointed out in a previous post that Tom Mueller does his students a great disservice by contaminating their curriculum with his irrational, non evidence based world view.

Nothing he has said since has lead me to think differently and I "shudder" when ever he provides further proof of how he deliberately damages the development of their critical thinking skills.

Tom Mueller said...

Hi Steve

I understand that my public persona does not concord perfectly with your views. In fact, given I do not use a pseudonym, I am somewhat restricted to what I am able to utter in public.

For the sake of argument, let's say that in fact I am in complete agreement with your POV.

Let's reexamine

John Harshman Friday, May 22, 2015 9:23:00 AM

I know there's some ugly conflict out there. I just don't think it's anything new or that it was caused by all those nasty atheists. The first amendment doesn't allow creationism or ID to be taught in public schools. Period. Nor does it allow teachers to proselytize atheism. The problem is with creationists.


re:
The first amendment doesn't allow creationism or ID to be taught in public schools.

Agreed!

re:

Nor does it allow teachers to proselytize atheism.

Agreed!

The problem is with creationists.

Amen! Especially the "Wedge" strategym and the "Teach the Controversy" sophistry.

I just don't think it's anything new or that it was caused by all those nasty atheists.

I think if all scientists were to acknowledge that individual opinions may vary (as they should) but that the American National Academy of Sciences has declared a consensus opinion "...that the evidence for evolution can be fully compatible with religious faith..." we would deprive our common enemy any justification of their intended goals.

So what do I do in the classroom that you object to?

Let's grant for the sake of argument that large numbers of high-school biology teachers — from 30% in Illinois and 38% in Ohio to a whopping 69% in Kentucky — supported the teaching of creationism."

I counter that they should be obliged as professional science teachers to "teach the controversy" but not along lines that the Discovery Institute would prefer. They should not be allowed to proselytize atheism nor should they be allowed to teach creationism or ID (we already singed off on that)

I also continue to agree with John and Larry - teachers should not be allowed to teach their personal views nor should they be allowed to ignore the controversy.

So as professionals, what should teachers be allowed to do?

I answer: Follow the NOMA paradigm no differently than cited on Larry's sidebar to the left on this very page (fer crying out loud)!

So what exactly what am I doing in my classroom that are you take exception to?

Anonymous said...

You're still too much of an idiot Gary.

Anonymous said...

You're not covering scientific needs, you're trying very hard to pass your bullshit for science. Unfortunately for you, there's a clear and distinctive difference.

John Harshman said...

I also continue to agree with John and Larry - teachers should not be allowed to teach their personal views nor should they be allowed to ignore the controversy.

I don't know how you have managed to misinterpret me here. Public school teachers should be forced to ignore the controversy. It has no place in science class. Following the NOMA paradigm has no place in science class. Bringing up the NAS statement on compatibility of science and religion has no place in science class.

Speaking of which, the NAS statement is not a consensus opinion, you have posted no information to suggest the beliefs of the majority of scientists, and you have no information about what is the majority opinion among scientists on this issue. As if that even mattered.

Tom Mueller said...


John Harshman
Saturday, May 23, 2015 8:55:00 PM
If all you're saying at great length is that a high school biology class is not the proper place to discuss the conflict between science and religion, I would agree. It's also not the proper place to claim that there's no conflict.


So exactly where did you disagree with me?

Jass said...

What I don't like about "the new atheists is that they attempt to renew their OLD IDEAS in a new light. This move has nothing to do with the new information or mathematical/biochemical models. It is just a propaganda maneuver to make the old, rubbish and forgotten atheism based on Darwin still on the ventilator... alive...

Piotr Gąsiorowski said...

Inquirer: ...they attempt to renew their OLD IDEAS in a new light...

Projection alert!

John Harshman said...

"nor should they be allowed to ignore the controversy"

You should indeed ignore the controversy. You should not tell your students that science and religion are compatible. You should not tell your students that science and religion are compatible. You should just teach science.

Larry Moran said...

Problem is, there are numerous studies showing that "just teaching science" doesn't work. When there's an active controversy in society you can't just ignore it by teaching facts. We want students to learn how to think critically about these important conflicts between science and religion. High school students in America are immersed in a culture where leading politicians deny evolution and climate change. You don't ignore those views by pretending that they have nothing to do with science and don't belong in a science class.

John Harshman said...

You don't ignore those views by pretending that they have nothing to do with science and don't belong in a science class.

What do you mean "pretending"? They don't have anything to do with science, do they? Anyway, you don't like Tom's method of lying to students that science doesn't conflict with their religion (which at the very least depends on what their religious beliefs are). What sort of thing would you propose? Would it be legal to do in U.S. public schools?

Steve said...

Clearly Moran and Coyne commit a category error.

This is likely due their inability to distinguish between the 'how' and the 'why questions. Presumably, they consider the two to be one and the same because they see believe answering 'how' questions are the only questions worth answering.

But 90% of the world think differently. That is why Coyne has to write a book. To protest the collective wisdom of the masses. The masses are WRONG according to Coyne because look what science has done. coyne of course will inevitably admit his conflation of science with technology but that is a minor detail.

They key point is that science does stuff where theology doesn't. That's good enough for him and Moran.

But it ain't good enough for most folks.

So philosophers and theologians, don't put your pens down just yet!!!!!! When science blows up the planet, you will want that pen badly. It'll be the only one in town!

Larry Moran said...

@John Harshman

Creationists attack science by denying certain facts, questioning fundamental theories and principles, and challenging the very process of acquiring knowledge. I think that defending science against those public attacks is very much a part of teaching science.

Tom Mueller said...

@ Larry

Exactly correct! we are converging on a conceptual asymptote.

I draw your attention to the current issue of National Geographic:

Why Do Many Reasonable People Doubt Science?
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/science-doubters/achenbach-text

A very telling quote:

Modern biology makes no sense without the concept of evolution, but religious activists in the United States continue to demand that creationism be taught as an alternative in biology class. When science conflicts with a person’s core beliefs, it usually loses.

I agree with Larry that the NOS approach is correct. I also repeat what I said earlier:

Speaking anecdotally here: I have found that in my own classroom (in a very conservative bible-belt community) students persistently remained obtuse to the cogency of evolution until I changed my approach to a less combative tone. My last class reported not a single negative comment contrary to evolution. Quite surprising considering precedent.

Many students needed to shift their religious views in order to do so; they shifted towards a Theistic vs literal interpretation. I am sure their "shift" in weltanschauung will continue. If I had started with all faith is superstition and vice, or even a less strident version thereof, as in previous years, I would have lost them at the outset as occurred in previous years when students perceived evolution as an attack on faith.

I assure you the local pastor is far more annoyed with me now than in previous years. His ability to perform damage control from his POV has been denied.


ITMT, I fail to comprehend John's contention that reiterating the official stand of the National Academy of Science constitutes somehow "lying to students".



Unknown said...

@John Harshman:
Gould is wrong, wrong, wrong. Religions all -- or almost all -- make claims about objective truth. It's philosophy, not just religion, that operates in the realm of human purposes, meanings, and values. Religion, on the other hand, derives all this from a crucial premise, that god exists and is telling you stuff. And that's where NOMA falls apart. It makes claims about objective truth that can indeed be studied scientifically. (By the way, science can in fact study values, including their evolutionary origins.)

So many issues...
To start with you are completely missing the point of NOMA, because you confuse descriptive and prescriptive statements. NOMA is prescriptive, it restricts what theology can make statements about, so it does not conflict with science. That religions overstep these boundaries does not make NOMA wrong in the least, just like a car going 50 mph does in no way show that the traffic sign showing a 35mph speed limit is wrong. The speed limit is not a scientific theory on what speeds cars on a particular road will have, it is a prescriptive statement telling drivers that they should stay below the posted speed.
It's also worth noting that in the US legal system religion is not defined. When somebody claims some set of beliefs to constitute their religion then as far as the law is concerned that is a religion. In the philosophy of religion there is a definition and that of course is far more restrictive than the "anything goes" of US law. Gould uses the philosophical definition and by the account of the philosophy of religion a lot of the religions in the US aren't.

Secondly you note that philosophy deals with human purposes, meanings, and values. That is true. It also rest on foundational assumptions - at least most philosophic traditions do (and those that don't go for one of the alternatives in the Münchhausen trilemma, i.e. infinite regress or circular reasoning). The difference between theology and philosophy is slim (at least) and arguably theology is merely a subset of philosophy.

You state that objective truth can be studied scientifically. I don't know how that would work. Scientific knowledge consists of intersubjective emprically adequate theories. It's intersubjective, because there is variance among human senses. If you are colorblind, you won't be able to say whether adding some test solution to your sample made it turn red or green for instance. We trust that a significant number of people will observe one. In contrast to that objective truths are logical extensions of some axiomatic system. Given the structure of natural numbers 5+2=7. That is an objective truth.

Finally: "science can in fact study values". Again we get to the difference between descriptive and presciptive statements. Science can study which values people have. It can't study which values people should have. An is does never imply an ought. In the early 1940s a majority of germans was for the holocaust. In 1800 a majority of people in the US were for slavery. In neither case the majority opinion justifies the morality.

Anonymous said...

Inquirer,

You seem to be rather misinformed, or else philosophically handicapped, maybe because of your religiously-self-inflicted mental blocks. I don't know about Coyne, but I would certainly call the origin of life a fact. No matter how many resources you might have, the origin of life will remain a fact.

After that incoherence you mention the origin of life as a "problem for science." You seem to think that if some question has not been completely solved, scientifically, then something other than science should be the "answer." Do you think that if something hasn't been scientifically solved it means that "god-did-it"? If so, you're no better than those ancient peoples that thought that active volcanoes were angry gods.

If you have "resources" maybe you should use them to get a better education.

Faizal Ali said...

Could you give an example of one of these "Why" questions? And how theology has definitively answered it, in the same way that science has answered the question "Where does the sun go at night?" (Which was once considered a theological question).

Tom Mueller said...

@ Simon

I am grateful to Larry for re-igniting my enthusiasm for Gould's writings. Gould borrowed much from Popper.

Popper held all observation is selective and theory-laden—there are no pure or theory-free observations.

Some of Gould's best essays grabbed that particular football and ran with it.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/popper/

steve oberski said...

Hey Steve,

While you're at it, show how different theologians invariably arrive at the same answer when presented with the same why question.

For bonus marks, demonstrate that all of your "why" questions are just badly formulated "how" questions.

steve oberski said...

Sez Tom Mueller, still deep in weasel territory: So what exactly what am I doing in my classroom that are you take exception to?.

You lie to your students.

judmarc said...

Thanks, I feel as if we've finally gotten somewhere substantive.

Last issue first: "God-like" - How about creating the universe and life? That seems to be beyond superhero stuff and well into traditional Abrahamic deity territory, unless you feel that Yahweh and The Trinity occupy the same position in historical culture as Spiderman.

First issue last: No theory in history has been so well mathematically proved and experimentally confirmed as quantum mechanics. There are all sorts of experiments confirming unobservable quantum states such as superposition as absolutely real and factual. So we have mathematically proved and experimentally demonstrated unobservable states that incontrovertibly affect the world we live in (e.g., qubits incorporating superposed states speeding up calculations beyond what is possible with non-superposed ordinary bits). Thus apologies to Wikipedia as its definitions are too restrictive: As proved both mathematically and by experimental observation, that which is itself unobservable may in fact affect the observable world in ways that we can detect.

If you're trying to contend there's a logical fault to the proposition that the unobservable can affect the universe in ways of which we can be aware, you've been proved quite wrong.

Note, however, there's nothing that would be defined as "supernatural" about any of this. Weird yes, quantum mechanics is that in spades. But supernatural, no, quantum mechanics are part of the fundamental workings of nature.

John Harshman said...

Simon, I think I mostly agree with you on what you said there, so you may be misinterpreting me.

NOMA is prescriptive, it restricts what theology can make statements about, so it does not conflict with science.

Could be. It's a while since I read Gould. That rule is however almost universally violated. Further, what can theology legitimately make statements about?

The difference between theology and philosophy is slim (at least) and arguably theology is merely a subset of philosophy.

Sure. But is it a useful subset that can lead to valid inferences? At any rate my point was that theology has no monopoly on questions of meaning and purpose, and that these questions are not the "magisterium" of theology. I don't think theology has a magisterium.

Scientific knowledge consists of intersubjective emprically adequate theories.

Sure. Feel free to substitute "empricial" any place I said "objective".

Science can study which values people have. It can't study which values people should have.

Again, sure. It can also study how those values arise and are maintained (perhaps evolutionarily), and the sources of values are the claimed purview of theology too; thus another conflict between science and religion.

Tom Mueller said...

@ steve/Diogenes

You lie to your students.

I am unaware of any "lie". I welcome correction. Could you please be specific. Thanks in advance

My interpretation of your criticism:

If one embraces some version of empirical positivism (sometimes referred to on this forum as "reductionism") then any concession to a religious POV becomes incoherent.

I agree - that conclusion does indeed necessarily follow from the premises.

I counter that many scientists in good standing, in fact, do not embrace that stance. I suggest you may want to read up on "post-positivism".

ITMT - I follow (chapter & verse) the lead of the National Academy of Sciences when teaching NOS & NOMA in my classroom. How does that make me a "weasel"?

I have not pretended the debate does not exist. I have not conceded any credibility or cogency to "creationism" nor "ID" in the classroom.

I have fulfilled my professional obligations by not allowing any attack on ANY core belief systems in my classroom. FTR - I find it far more problematic (according to anecdotal evidence) to defend the right of the atheist POV in the classroom which seems to be considered a "fair target" by too many students, teachers and lamentably too many school administrators.

It would appear I may have hit the "sweet spot" in terms of "results" where an ever increasing proportion of my students are (albeit reluctantly given their religious affiliations) conceding the cogency of evolutionary theory.

If you suggest I could be doing something differently and obtain yet better results in my classroom, I am all ears and open to suggestion and constructive criticism.

I remind you of the National Geographic article cited above:

Why Do Many Reasonable People Doubt Science?
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2015/03/science-doubters/achenbach-text

A very telling quote:

Modern biology makes no sense without the concept of evolution, but religious activists in the United States continue to demand that creationism be taught as an alternative in biology class. When science conflicts with a person’s core beliefs, it usually loses.

ITMT - I have stumbled across an interesting Wikipedia article that seems to mirror the debate on this forum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_of_morality

An astute delineation of three disparate POVs are made regarding the relationship between science and religion:

1 - Incompatible
2 - Conflict
3 - Independence

And the suggestion is made regarding morality that science is not necessarily relegated to a "descriptive" domain but can also be "prescriptive"

I was never convinced that particular approach succeeded. For example, Act Utilitarianism in particular fell short of the mark in my opinion. Mind you my expertise in matters philosophical is quite out of date and again I welcome correction.

Anonymous said...

This is funny. So now faithheads are focusing on the origin of life where we don't have all the answers yet, therefore goddidit. God retreated from the now well understood and evidenced field of evolutionary biology and now he's stuck at the beginning where self-replication first evolved, and when that is all figured out and a consensus forms around the evidence, where is God going to go next?

Anonymous said...

I have to agree with Tom Mueller that it is useful to talk with students about the conflict between their religious beliefs and evolution theory. In my freshman-level college courses, I let the students bring up the conflicts -- in every course where I got student participation going well they always did.

I told them that evolution and belief in God are not incompatible, though some ideas about God are incompatible with evolution. In some classes I went so far as to say that if their idea about God was in conflict with the reality of the world they believe God created, their idea of God was too small.

Sometimes I had evidence that these things helped -- students who had repeated questions as they bounced between me and people at home who had different ideas.

At the high school level, reminding relevant adults and students that evolution doesn't require atheism is probably even more important -- but it's harder to do it in the classroom.

Anonymous said...

One can be a good scientist and a seriously religious person. It doesn't follow that you're doing that.

You've built a self-consistent, intricate network of ideas that seem to you to solve problems in biology and chemistry. However, where it should intersect reality, there are problems. Intelligence at the molecular level, for example, has to be shown to be useful idea in explaining the functioning of molecules, and you haven't done it. And the bizarre misunderstanding of natural selection you demonstrated on another thread suggests you don't know nearly enough about basics of evolution to say anything useful about it.

(Natural selection does not "force" individuals to choose particular mates. In fact, that's exactly backwards. Individuals choose the mates they do, and if their choices cause changes in allele frequencies over generations, we include those choices in the abstract concept of natural selection.)

Unknown said...

I feel as if we've finally gotten somewhere substantive.

I don't. I think we are moving further and further from the key issues.

creating the universe and life? That seems to be beyond superhero stuff and well into traditional Abrahamic deity territory,

It does. It should be noted though that most Christian sects do not hold that god created life, nor do they subscribe to "theistic evolution". It's worth noting that the RCC and the eastern orthodox churches both vocally opposed natural theology (Paley et al) and theistic evolution in the sense of de Chardin. Neither of them has expressed issues with either evolutionary biology, nor current ideas in abiogenesis. And the creationists that exist in Judaism and Islam got there via the christian fundamentalist movement.

As far as creating the universe goes, I think the current catholic view is that god could have prevented the universe from happening but didn't. Even then, we can observe back to the microwave background, possibly a bit further through gravitational waves, but that only gets us to something like 10^-32s after the universe began. Nothing that happened before that interacts with the observable universe.

No theory in history has been so well mathematically proved and experimentally confirmed as quantum mechanics.

I do not doubt that QM is as well documented as it gets. That does not imply however that you can easily move from that theory to ontology. Nor is a scientific theory ever proven. In addition to that we know that we can not reconcile QM with relativity - that's something we can prove mathematically - QM rests on measure theory and a measure space consists of a set and a sigma algebra, for which a measure is defined. For R^N, the Borel sigma algebra is used. You can not assign a consistent measure to non-Borel sets. When we set up a simple detection experiment, where we have a box and an electron, with a detector telling us whether it is on the left side or on the right side, QM gives us a probability for both results. That probability is a measure on the sets "left side of the box" and "right side of the box". Both are Borel. Now we add relativity, taking into account the curvature of space time from anything but the electron. We still get a probability, because while the sets get distorted, they are still Borel. Now we note that the electron also has a mass and therefore produces a change in the curvature of space time. We plug that in and we get nothing, because this makes any set we could reasonably set up a detector for non-Borel. General relativity also has a very solid experimental basis. But since the two are at odds with one another, one of them, if not both are wrong. My money is on GR having the issues (mainly because it messes with any theory that uses measure theory in some way and measure theory is something I use regularly, despite not working in physics), but there are physicists that think the problem is with QM and some that think there's an issue with both. I don't think it's particularly helpful to use QM to debate physicalist ontology, because you end up with a non-trivial aspect of philosophy and a rather complex bit of science. That's why I offered classical mechanics as an alternative. I could equally call on things closer to my work and point out that kin selection and group selection in sensu Wilson, Wilson and Sober are equivalent and thus count as the same theory (though in different formulations). I could also point to a discussion I've had here a couple of times, where I argued against teaching that drift and selection are separate processes and in favor of teaching them as a single resampling process. That's not an ontological claim on my part, it's just something I think has didactic advantages. In the end we have the same issue with moving from a scientific theory, no matter how well established to an ontology.

Unknown said...

Could be. It's a while since I read Gould. That rule is however almost universally violated. Further, what can theology legitimately make statements about?

Theology makes logical inferences from dogmatic statements (at least in dogmatic religions this is the case). I.e. the main point is stating what a belief in the dogmata entails. I.e. catholic theology is concerned with what you have to believe if you accept the dogmata of the church.

Sure. But is it a useful subset that can lead to valid inferences? At any rate my point was that theology has no monopoly on questions of meaning and purpose, and that these questions are not the "magisterium" of theology. I don't think theology has a magisterium.

Of course it leads to valid inferences. To quickly review: A valid inference is one where the conclusion follows from the premises. This is distinct from the soundness, which demands that the premises be true. Theology starts with axioms and then asks what follows from them. The same holds for philosophy. The magisterium of catholic theology is catholicism. Catholic theology works out what catholicism logically entails. In the same way various types of philosophy start with different axioms and we could hold them to be individual magisteria as well. Kantian ethics has different premises than -say- existentialist ethics and they lead to different results.

Tom Mueller said...

@ Simon

Bravo

Boy does this bring back memories! Was Logical Positivism a natural reaction to Kant's synthethic a priori but did they take their criticisms too far?

To hear Popper (and eventually even A J Ayer) tell it... yes indeed.

Jmac said...

@Larry

"Our position is that there's no convincing evidence gods, therefore you should not believe in them. "

Can you tell us what is the unconvincing evidence for existence of gods is?

Peter Wadeck said...

I know there is a lot of bad theology out there. For example, people say that God is 'all good.' This is juvenile. If God is only goodness then what about the flooding which killed every living being except Noah and his family. Clearly, religious people are quite capable of creating their own straw men.

Larry points out more bad theology:

"The fact that this "sophisticated" version of theology begins with the premise that god exists seems to escape them but it turns out that that's the whole point of their argument. They just can't seem to get their head around the real question, "Is the belief in a supernatural being compatible with science as a way of knowing?"

I think St Paul, the writer of the epistle to the Romans knows a bit more about theology than the dimwit theologian who said that. In Rom 1:20 he says:

"For the invisible things of him (God) since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made."

For thousands of years the Bible has taught that we know there is a God from his creation, not the other way around. It is a logical deduction from the facts. In fact it is rational thought such as this that was the basis for the modern scientific revolution. It happened in Christian countries, and some of the scientists where Christian, like Sir Isaac Newton, one of the greatest scientists of all time.

John Harshman said...

All that's great. Except for one little problem: observation of the world seems to rule out the sort of god who reveals his existence (though of course not the sort who hides all evidence). The fact that many scientists of the past (and even some in the present) were Christians doesn't seem all that relevant.

Anonymous said...

All theology is bad theology. After all, it's the art of fooling yourself into making sense of mere fantasies. It always starts with the premise that this "god" exists, even if you pretend otherwise.

Nice reinterpretation of history while ignoring the foundations of science put there by cultures that were far from Christian, and while ignoring the many ways in which Christianity tried so hard to stop science from studying anything that contradicted "Scripture."

Yeah, now for the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, while forgetting, again, that it's exactly because your god is a fantasy that Christians of one or another venue reject other Christians for no other reason than their interpretations and favouring some pieces of their fantasies over other pieces of their fantasies, plus the numerous eisegesis they have to build on top in order to keep up with the times.

«Oldest ‹Older   201 – 267 of 267   Newer› Newest»