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Monday, January 05, 2015

If you take away religion, you can't hire enough police

Here's a Harvard Professor, Clayton Christensen, telling us with a straight face that democracy in the USA requires religion because in the absence of religion people won't choose to obey laws. He ends with, "If you take away religion, you can't hire enough police."

It makes me wonder how much critical thinking goes on in his classes at Harvard Business School. Do Harvard students let him get away with this crap?


  1. I guess that explains why countries like Denmark and Sweden are lawless hell-holes compared with the USA. I've often been puzzled by that. It could explainhwy, indeed, states like Alabama and Mississippi are so peacful and law-abiding compared with Oregon and Vermont.

    1. I thought that Sweden was already operating under Sharia Law!

    2. Sweden certainly is a lawless hellhole. Look at those novels by Stieg Larsson!

    3. The UK too. Ignore Ireland, and more than 50% identify as having 'no religion'. I'd fear for my life, but I'm too busy a-murderin' everyone else.

  2. The Harvard Professor needs to read more history: he is most unoriginal!

    La religion rattache au ciel une idée d'égalité qui empêche le riche d'être massacré par le pauvre." Napoléon Bonaparte au Conseil d'Etat, le 4 mars 1806.

  3. Remember that he's a Professor in the Business School and an advocate of "Disruption," based on his case studies which don't all fit his rather Procrustean use of the term. His hedge fund lost a bundle too.

    He's also a Mormon and a consultant to Mitt Romney's campaign, so I'm not surprised at this.

    1. I'm sure that the fact that he's devoutly religious has nothing to do with his ability to think critically. :-)

  4. Well, in the Pokemon anime, there is no religion, and things usually work out just fine.

  5. Uh, these twits say America is a "Christian Nation" (like South Africa under Apartheid and Afrikaner Christian Nationalism) and the US already has the highest rate of incarceration in the developed world. We already can't build enough prisons to fit all our Christian and Muslim criminals, and that is because of our high rate of conservative Christian belief. If we had more conservative Christians than we have now, prison overcrowding would be even worse than it is.

    Social problems are substantially worse in the "red states" which have a higher rate of conservative Christianity. Social problems aren't just correlated with conservative Christianity, they're at least partially caused by it. At the very least, conservative Christianity causes anti-equality policies, poor health care, terrible education, teenage pregnancy and high gun ownership, all bad for law and order.

    The proportion of prison inmates who are atheist is almost too low to be measured, but surely less than 2 percent. Meanwhile death row is packed with born-again Christians and Muslims who committed horrible crimes, but who are absolutely convinced that they're going to Heaven when they die-- and that the innocent people they raped and/or murdered will burn in hell forever, and deserve to be there, because if their victims were of a different religion, that makes them morally degenerate and deserving of hell.

  6. Lets think about.
    its not religion but rather moral conclusions people live by.
    What is the origin for the moral conclusions?
    Can they come from elsewhere then religion?
    Where do they come from other then religion?

    actually its all wrong from what the bible says.
    The bible says Gods laws, greatly, are written on mans conscience. Not revealed religion . Thats why no people have a accuse despite never having the true faith having been shown them here and there and in time.
    So I don't think people need the true faith or any religion to be moral at a acceptable level.
    However it will never reach Jesus level as high as loving ones neighbour as oneself.

    Another to remember is that the European world is the result of christian morality as a high standard. Especially the protestant peoples/nation.
    The protestant far more was attentive to the bibles teachings and indeed the most moral peoples in history were the protestants. We did the most good, made a high standard, and the least evil pound for pound.
    these low crime nations are historic protestant ones.
    so having this moral heritage means they don't atrophy even though they don't believe anymore in enough percentages to justify defining them as religious.
    without protestant Christianity we all would be again Saxon and viking invaders and killers. not the cream of the crop we are today.
    i do presume evangelical christians are, in a curve, the most moral and loving people in the world. It should be that way if our faith is true and it is.
    in fact the rise of niceness in mankind came from the evangelical/puritan protestant percentages and so especially in the anglo-American civilization.

    Without religion it still would be a slow descent into the old morality. If at all.

    1. Mr Byers writes:
      "Lets think about.
      its not religion but rather moral conclusions people live by.
      What is the origin for the moral conclusions?"

      People have lived in (large) social groups waaaay before the bible was written. Clearly we as humankind have managed to survive these 'dark times' before monotheistic religions were invented.

      I've recently read the book twelve years a slave, and the thing which amazes me most is that while the whites used the bible to enslave, rape, torture, kill and mutilate the blacks, the black slaves prayed to the same god, read the same bible and ended up getting themselves enslaved, raped, tortured, killed and mutilated. How can this be mr Byers?

      Furthermore, your remark "Another to remember is that the European world is the result of christian morality as a high standard" shows you clearly know nothing about European history.
      Because hunderds of millions of people died due to the fact that countries had different xtian religions as state religion, and holy wars were a popular way of murdering unbelievers and gaining your country some extra land.

      The Spanish inquisition is the first thing which comes to mind. The loving and peaceful way the people in Northern Ireland smash each others heads in because one side of Belfast is catholic, the other half protestant.

      "Without religion it still would be a slow descent into the old morality."
      Yes, a moratlity based on humanism, instead of 'my god is better than yours'-ism.
      As Dutch astronaut Wubbo Ockels said on his death bed:
      "There are many Religions who get people together, but never all people. The different gods in whom people believe do
      separate Humanity into groups of people. This separation has led to many conflicts and even wars. These religions do not unify
      humanity with the earth. They were not sustainable. But if we believe in the holistic Humanity we will have no conflicts because
      we will be inseparable. We all belong to this one Humanity, we can all believe in Humanity, in this same “higher power”. The
      big difference with existing religions is that we can believe in the All of our selves. The God of humanity is in each of us. This
      God is not outside of us. We cannot hide behind this God because it is us. We cannot exclude ourselves from our responsibility
      for all of us "

      The whites in 12 years a slave hid behind their personal god and commited the attrocities in name of their god. The IS fundamentalists do exactly the same.

      Mr Byers, do I need to remind of Matthew 7:3-5?
      "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

    2. Byers: "i do presume evangelical christians are, in a curve, the most moral and loving people in the world. It should be that way if our faith is true"

      It is not true, therefore your faith is false.

      Yes, very loving, these evangelicals who burned heretics at the stake, oppressed Jews, made war on Catholics, and agreed with Catholics that all Anabaptists had to die.

      Very loving, these evangelicals, who were ecstatic when the Irish Potato Famine happened, because (they hoped) it would kill 1 or 2 million Catholics and they wanted their land for free.

      Very loving, these evangelicals, who supported the slave society of the Confedracy in the US Civil War, who split three (3) Christian denominations into two each to continue supporting slavery, and later opposed racial desegregation.

      Very loving, these evangelicals, whose bigwig leaders signed the Land Letter, written by Richard Land and addressed to Pres. Bush, telling him God wanted America to invade Iraq.

      Very loving, these evangelicals, who supported death squads and dictators in Third World countries, who armed and enabled Suharto to carry out genocide in Indonesia and East Timor.

      Remember the 1980's, Robert? When AIDS first came out, the evangelicals were popping champagne corks, gleeful that all the queers were going to die. Many evangelicals said God made AIDS as a judgment because gays deserved to die. Very "loving and moral" those evangelicals!

      Jerry Falwell wanted all gays to die, and David Duke made the joke, "Have you heard about AIDS? It's the only disease that turns fruits into vegetables." Death made them ecstatic.

      Unfortunately for them, science intervened and, based on evolutionary theory, developed a cocktail of drugs that HIV couldn't evolve its way out of. Faith healing Christians couldn't cure HIV positive people and wouldn't if they could, because they wanted all.gays to die. But science could and would, because scientists wanted them to live.

      But evangelicals, realizing that science has foiled them by saving gay lives, increasingly today assert that they will do what their God failed at, and kill all gay people themselves.

      Like Rousas Rushdoony, pastor James David Manning of Atlah church, Pastor Steven Anderson, and that pastor in NZ who all say ALL gays should be killed.

      Pastor Anderson said in December that the Bible had the cure for AIDS: kill all gays before Christmas like the Bible commands, and HIV will be wiped out by Xmas. (Never mind that HIV in Africa is mostly transmitted hetrrosexually.) Anderson just released a documentary, AIDS: The Judgment of God to back up his demands for mass execution. Very loving.

    3. While almost all of it is true, to be fair, one can't help but to exclude at least one religious group from this crowd-Jehovah's Witnesses

    4. Don't forget the mass rape of lesbian women in for example South Afrika and Russia by gangs of men, because the loving religion of these men seem to mention this will cure these lesbians and will turn them hetero sexual again.

      I would expect that Mr Byers will respond that those people you mention above don't represent his faith, his religion. Just like many people who say the bible is the true thing, will cherry pick their way through the book and ignore stuff like stoning your woman if she is unfaithful (or if she was raped), smashing babies against rocks and how to treat your slave.

  7. Did my commentators on my thread read my thread. I thought it was pretty good.
    in fact I was agreeing that religion is not needed for standard morality.
    Instead the bible clearly insists man has gods laws wriiten on his conscience. No religion needed.
    However the great impact and instruction of the true faith did raise mankinds morality in those peoples most believing. it raised the standard mean. We live in a evangelical protestant mean today all over the world. its not the worlds idea.
    therefore the extraction of the true faith, all faiths, will not effect the present morality as a settled fact. its possible a slow descent will happen. Yet we have a good start.
    Yes the bible and other faiths say Don't murder. Yet its our conscience reacting to Gods laws that really forces our obedience and this where ever men live.
    i don't think Catholic middle ages people were morally better, or very much, then pagan Japan or china.
    I think there must of been more direction from the catholic church with results but possibly no difference.
    Only when people became very religious in enough numbers, calling themselves protestants, did society rise in the moral mean.
    Regardless of silly accusations i insist I see my people, not evangelical I mean, and our cousins, Yankee Americans as people who never did anything immoral or unkind worth bringing up. We were always the good guys since colonization here.
    this because of our puritan/Evangelical niceness raising the mean and making a curve on the graph of humanity.
    You can score these things.

    I presume everyone lives in a common mean of morality regardless of faith.
    just a wee bit difference in niceness these days.
    All North america is really a Evangelical civilization. They just don't know the moral history.

  8. Please note, he said "religion", not "Christianity". It's curious how quickly many seem to equate the two. Our forefathers believed in the concept of a nation, "under God" with freedom for people to worship in any religious fashion they chose. It's that concept that has kept us strong with many, varied religeons - including Islam.