More Recent Comments

Wednesday, June 04, 2014

Do you really "get" evolution?

Stephanie Keep is the new editor of Reports of the National Center for Science Education at NCSE (National Center for Science Education).

She tells an interesting story in her first post on the Science Laegue of Amercia blog [A New Finger in the Pie].
An editor friend of mine asked me the other day to read an activity she’s developing for middle school, one of the soon-to-be plethora of activities aligned to the Next Generation Science Standards. This particular one was about evolution, and asked kids to look for variation in a number of human traits and then infer adaptive explanations. For example, they could measure finger lengths and then come up with a reason that longer fingers are more adaptive than shorter ones. What followed was a half-hour conversation in which I tried my best to explain why that was a terrible idea for an activity. And here’s the thing—this friend of mine, she’s super-smart and has an advanced degree in biology from Harvard University. Now, she completely understood, once we discussed it, why that kind of activity will reinforce misconceptions about evolution (that every feature is adaptive, that you can infer a structure’s adaptive value from its current function, etc.), but we still had to have the discussion.

I have worked for the past decade-plus with scientists, science writers, and science educators, all of whom have the best intentions in the world, all of whom would have no problem declaring their allegiance to the cause of an authentic science education grounded in evolution. But—and I don’t want to point fingers at anybody here—many of them would have not batted an eye if that activity had come across their desks. And this, I believe, is one of the most important truths we have to face: many of us don’t really get evolution. It’s such a beautiful, simple, and powerful idea, but it’s also finicky, demanding vigilant attention to detail to be properly explained and explored.
Most of you will be familiar with this idea since I've been complaining about adaptationism for decades. In order to "get" evolution, you need to know about Neutral Theory and random genetic drift—and that's just for starters. We need to work much harder to dispel misconceptions about evolution.

Lot's of people don't really "get" evolution but, in fairness, they don't study it either. But if you are going to write about evolution—or teach it—then you'd better make sure you understand it. Unfortunately, there are far too many people like Stephanie Keep's friend. We have to fix that.

There's one group that spends an extraordinary amount of time "studying" evolution without ever "getting" it. I'm referring to creationists, especially the Intelligent Design Creationists, otherwise known as IDiots. They've been told time and time again that there's much more to evolution than just adaptation. Recently, some of them actually seemed to "get" the ideas of Neutral Theory and random genetic drift although that turned out to be an illusion. They still don't get evolution.

In any case, one of the creationists (Donald McLaughlin1) has blogged about Stephanie Keep's story [see A New Hire at the National Center for Science Education Admits "Many of Us Don't Really Get Evolution"]. Here's part of what McLaughlin says,
Bear in mind, too, that the very educators who don't get evolution are also the ones who fuss and complain whenever a state legislator or science standards committee member proposes language about "teaching the strengths and weaknesses" of evolution. From the way they kvetch, you would think there are no weaknesses in evolutionary theory. But if many of them don't get evolution in the first place, how would they know?

Keep says that evolution is a "beautiful, simple, and powerful idea, but it's also finicky, demanding vigilant attention to detail to be properly explained and explored." Perhaps Keep could provide a helpful list of exactly what those details are so educators like her Harvard-trained friend can stay on the straight and narrow Darwinian path, lest they join the chorus calling for a new theory of evolution.
This is ironic and confused on so many levels that I'm not even going to try and point them out. I just post it here for your amusement.


1. Here's his profile on the Discovery Institute website.
Donald McLaughlin joined Discovery Institute in August 2013, as a Development Officer and Regional Representative in the upper Midwest and Northeast regions. His areas of responsibility include cultivating and stewarding major gifts, and planned giving. Donald has had a successful career in development, including 8 years as a Regional Director of Advancement for Prison Fellowship Ministries, 2 years as National Director of Major Gifts for Teen Mania Ministries and 5 years as Regional Director of Advancement for Taylor University.

Donald is a 1975 graduate of Taylor University where he earned his BA in Speech and Drama. In 1977, he earned an MA in Clinical Audiology from Ball State University in Muncie, IN. While at Prison Fellowship, Donald also participated in the Centurions Program. Prior to his work in Development, Donald spent more than twenty years in financial services with both AG Edwards and Merrill Lynch. Donald lives in Granger Indiana, near South Bend, with his wife of 35 years, Elizabeth, who is Chair of the Communications Department at Bethel College in Mishawaka, IN. Donald enjoys reading, traveling, and music.
He also has a religious profile at: Donald McLaughlin.

246 comments :

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 246 of 246
Diogenes said...

Denny, what the &$#@ is this that you wrote?

judmarc said - “How do you or anyone know that "about 80% of the universe's galaxies are hostile to life?” - Only spiral galaxies are “known” have the potential to host life. Non-spiral galaxies do not. Spiral galaxies constitute approximately 80% of the known universe. May I remove my face from my palm now?

Ugh. Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain...

1. If "Only spiral galaxies are “known” have the potential to host life", and if "Spiral galaxies constitute approximately 80% of the known universe", then 80% of the universe can host life. Not 20%. So you off by several sextillion planets. Admittedly, a small error by creationist standards.

2. Oh why the hell are non-spiral galaxies hostile to life? In all those sextillions of planets there's no liquid water? Oh really?

3. Does your 80% figure refer to number of galaxies or number of stars? If spiral galaxies differ from non-spiral galaxies in their average numbers of stars (i.e. they're bigger), then these numbers can be way off.

4. What the hell does it matter anyway? You're trying to invoke God of the Gaps to support creationism. God of the Gaps is a logical fallacy. You observe X and say God's purpose was X; and if the observation changes later, and we observe not-X, then you'll say God's purpose was not-X. It's circular logic.

Many creationists have read the writing on the wall and know that we'll prove there are hundreds of millions of planets that in the Goldilocks zone. So IDcreationists like the Discovery Institute are are already asserting that if there are millions of life-friendly planets, that's also proof of Intelligent Design. If life-friendly exoplanets are non-existent, you'll say that shows God's purpose. If life-friendly exoplanets number in the hundreds of millions, you'll say that shows God's purpose too.

It's circular logic. On this blog we care about the scientific method, and you ain't got none for your side. Circular logic is not the scientific method. We're done.

Diogenes said...

Now it’s your turn, Denny Cochran. I'll assume you don't believe in Santa Claus. What do you see in a-Santaism that meets your deepest needs as a human? Can you answer this in a positive way, that is not supported by your opposition to St. Nicholas, or to how five year olds behave on Christmas morning.

Diogenes said...

Hey Denny, when you get to heaven, say hello to Jeffrey Dahmer. Before he was executed for all his murders, he was converted by the creationist videos of Kent Hovind, aka Federal Prison Inmate #06452-017. Also say hello to Ariel Castro, Bruce David Chapman, George Sodini and Rollen Stewart. "Once saved, always saved" as was said by the pastor of murderer Sodini.

Peter said...

I asked Denny a question, and I would like to have an answer from Denny, not quips from judmarc.

Faizal Ali said...

Trust me. judmarc's quips will be far more succinct and informative than whatever bilge Denny might spew in response.

steve oberski said...

Father George Coyne is a version of Denny who is too dishonest to publicly state his views on evolution.

At least Denny is not ashamed of his views and does not try to hide them.

I saw Father George Coyne (Jesuit Catholic priest, former head honcho astronomer at the Vatican observatory) on Bill Mahers film 'Religulous' and I thought he came across as one of the more rational of the religious interviewed by Bill Maher.

This prompted me to see him in person at a lecture he gave in Toronto at the Newman Centre Chapel, Univerity of Toronto:

Naming the Holy Lecture Series - The Dance of the Fertile Universe: Searching for God in a Scientific Culture, Prof. George V. Coyne, SJ, Astronomer, the Vatican Observatory, President, the Vatican Observatory Foundation, Adjunct Professor, University of Arizona, Wednesday Nov. 12, 2008, 7:30pm

This was presented in the Catholic church to a (strangely enough) predominantly Catholic audience, and we got to see the real Fr. Coyne hidden under a (thin) veneer of rationality.

After an hour or so of a very good review of why science is the best tool we have for understanding the universe, and a number of pot shots at creationists and intelligent designoids, we got to hear what he really thinks:

Basically, living beings are organized as a tree, the tree appears to have a direction, and only god could have given it this direction. Really, he presented one of those tree of life diagrams, noted how it appeared to have a direction with humans near the apex, and that was his "proof". I shit you not.

This is how the Catholic church "accepts" evolution.

Faizal Ali said...

Thanks for that.

But who isn't calm?

Peter said...

Lutesuite's and Judmarc's attitude is not conductive to Denny ever thinking about evolutionary points. Their attitude is counterproductive.
@Denny,
I really would like this point addressed.

Faizal Ali said...

The problem is that Denny's brain is not conducive to his thinking about evolutionary points. If you think patiently explaining to him the proper meaning of the term "macroevolution" is going to lead to his accepting evolution, go knock yourself out. It's your time to waste as you wish.

Anonymous said...

If scientists can create life how would that prove that life can spontaneously emerge...? Wouldn't that prove that life needs a creator....?

Unknown said...

Barbara – Thank you for your thoughtful remarks. I hope you’re still with us.

First, I do “look at evolution” all the time. It’s in every science related magazine, every science related TV documentary (“COSMOS: A Spacetime Odyssey”), and all nature programs. It’s the primary basis of all scientific investigation, and informs the subjects of every scientific journal (e.g. Stephanie Keep NCSE). All the scientific journals are reviewed by a scientifically qualified staff at my primary source of scientific information, Reason To Believe (reasons.org) and published 2 or 3 times a week+.

As to judmarc and other Sandwalk fans, I understand they are trying to convince me that evolution is not only the best, but also the only rational explanation for how we got here. I respectfully disagree. One can read scientific data and not find evolution as the best explanation, and certainly not the only rational one. See http://www.reasons.org/Search?q=classification+of+organisms%3B+ for what I found, when I searched “classification of organisms.”

Second, however, I think it’s more fun to go for the big issue. I’m referring to your truth claim. “Neither the universe in general nor the process of evolution provide meaning. That's simply true.” Yes, it is. And that truth, I think, makes two points.
1. Your proposition is a logical fallacy. More than once, now, you and others have said the universe doesn’t provide meaning and purpose, because the universe is material, which cannot provide something that transcends itself (meaning and purpose), even if it supposedly produces biological humans. Yet, meaning and purpose are intrinsic to human nature (not so with the rest of nature).
2. Your truth claim, I think, also makes the point that your acceptance of meaning and purpose as tied to evolution (a materialistic proposition) is a faith choice. Why place your faith in a proposition that requires an a priory commitment to atheism – that’s not scientific?

I do indeed reject evolution, but not simply because it is without meaning and purpose. I reject it based on the actual scientific merits offered by the people who propose it, who un-objectively require that science be seen through a naturalistic/atheistic lens, and also because of Lewontin’s quote. I accept that Larry must have had more personal or up-to-date information from Lewontin about his quote. Notwithstanding the difference between Moran and Lewontin (co-evolutionists and atheists), I believe Lewontin’s quote remains a valid informed and honest opinion worth consideration.

John Harshman said...

...my primary source of scientific information, Reason To Believe...

Denny, you can't expect anyone to take you seriously after that opening. That isn't science. It's feel-good apologetics. You are seriously fooling yourself.

See http://www.reasons.org/Search?q=classification+of+organisms%3B+ for what I found

That's just a list of headlines. There's no way to respond to it. Perhaps you could pick one article that you think challenges evolution. (I have to say that your ratite material was just nonsensical. Remember it?)

Your proposition is a logical fallacy. ... Yet, meaning and purpose are intrinsic to human nature

Perhaps, but only because we choose our own meanings and purposes. Sure, evolution doesn't give meaning to life. But how exactly does God give meaning to life? Have you ever thought about that?

I reject it based on the actual scientific merits offered by the people who propose it...

How can you possibly know anything about the scientific merits if your only knowledge of science is filtered through a creationist source? Hint: they lie.

And hey, when are you going to respond to my questions about your self-contradiction? Remember? Galapagos finches: one species/several species; one creation/several creations?

Cubist said...

sez denny cochran: "I reject [evolution] based on the actual scientific merits offered by the people who propose it, who un-objectively require that science be seen through a naturalistic/atheistic lens, and also because of Lewontin’s quote."
So you reject evolution on account of it's accepted by those unGodly atheistic scientists. Hm. I'm curious: Are you aware of all those evolution-accepting scientists who are Godly and Christian? That's a group which includes such scientists as Theodosius Dobzhansky (Russian Orthodox), Robert T. Bakker (Pentecostal), Glenn Morton (evangelical Xtian and former YEC), and Francis Collins (Evangelical Xtian). Now, if you want to say that any concept which is accepted by unGodly people must be rejected by faithful Xtians, and therefore Collins et al have been deceived by Satan or something, fine. But even if you apply that standard to evolution (which you may or may not, I dunno?), I'll bet 10 years' rent that you accept a heck of a lot of other ideas, besides evolution, which are similarly tainted by the fact of being accepted by unGodly atheists. Oh, and since you think unGodly atheists are wrongity-wrong-wrong-wrong about religion, how come you buy what unGodly atheists have to say about the religious significance of evolution? More: How come you, a Xtian, are buying the unGodly atheistic view of evolution in preference to what Godly Xtians like Collins and Bakker have to say about evolution?
Are there any other religious issues on which you trust atheists more than you do your fellow Xtians, denny cochran?

The whole truth said...

"Yet, meaning and purpose are intrinsic to human nature (not so with the rest of nature)."

Denny, what makes you think that meaning and purpose are intrinsic only to humans? What makes you think that meaning and purpose are "intrinsic"? Are humans born with meaning and purpose? What exactly is the "intrinsic" meaning and purpose of a human? And how about a human born with 4 arms and 4 legs, or no arms and no legs, or two heads, or mentally retarded, or cancer, or born dead?

You obviously don't think that plants and animals have "intrinsic" meaning and purpose but do you think that plants and animals have meaning and purpose at all? How about viruses?

Peter said...

@Deny
Reasons to Believe presents flawed skewed digests of evolutionary publications. There is no reason to believe anything they write. There is no reason to believe them competent.
If you seriously want to understand evolutionary biology, try starting with what evolutionary people themselves write. The journal Evollution Education and Outreach is open access. See for instance
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12052-014-0011-6
A good book on evolution is a required starter. I recommend "The Tangled Bank" by Carl Zimmer as an introductory book for non-biologists.

Peter said...

Add Francisco Ayala (Roman Catholic), Kenneth Miller, Keith Miller, R.A. Fisher, Simon Conway Morris ... I don't know where the list of Christian evolutionary biologists ends.
The point is that religion and understanding of evolution are not correlated.

I agree with Cubist:
" if you think unGodly atheists are wrong about religion, how come you buy what unGodly atheists have to say about the religious significance of evolution? More: How come you, a Christian, are buying the unGodly atheistic view of evolution in preference to what Godly Christians like Collins and Bakker have to say about evolution?"

Faizal Ali said...

Those are excellent points, Cubist and Peter. It's a reminder that creationism is not just bad science. It's bad theology, as well.

judmarc said...

Here's what I think is a really important point wrt Hugh Ross and Denny's take on what science tells us.

In response to my question about how anyone could know that a large percentage of galaxies were hostile to life, Denny said the following:

Only spiral galaxies are “known” have the potential to host life. Non-spiral galaxies do not.

Did you catch that? We only know of one type of galaxy that hosts life (that being the Milky Way, since that's the one we're in and we don't know of other life Out There), so other types of galaxies do not. Not are not known to, which would be a correct, albeit not terribly significant, statement of our present knowledge, but do not, jumping to the preferred conclusion on the basis of nothing other than that it hasn't yet been proved wrong.

Do you see the sleight of hand that was performed there, Denny? Read carefully before you choose to believe someone that loose with conclusions.

Diogenes said...

Joe,

That is the most thorough smack down of a creationist that I have seen in many months.

Cringe-inducing. I felt pity for the creationist foist upon his lies.

colnago80 said...

Re John Harshman

When is Denny going to respond to my query as to the broken vitamin C gene in the great apes and humans and whether the sun actually stood still in the sky for a day as claimed in the Book of Joshua.

judmarc said...

Those are excellent points, Cubist and Peter. It's a reminder that creationism is not just bad science. It's bad theology, as well.

One further reason why Intelligent Design is bad theology: It depends upon the proposition that some of the aspects of living things could not have evolved. In other words, it is premised on any God/Creator/Designer not being able to bring the species we see into being by means of evolution. Thus Intelligent Design necessarily requires that any God/Creator/Designer not be all-powerful and all-knowing. Since the Biblical God/Creator is all-powerful and all-knowing, Intelligent Design requires not believing in Him.

colnago80 said...

Re Peter

Ole Denny might also read the two books by Ken Miller, no atheist he. Of course, ole Denny might not consider Roman Catholics to be Christians.

Piotr Gąsiorowski said...

I think Hugh Ross (and Denny after him) regards elliptical galaxies as unlikely life-hosting environments because they are dominated by very old, low-metallicity stars. Elements heavier than helium are much less abundant there than in the disk populations of spiral galaxies, so there's less raw material for planet formation. However, it has been argued that elliptical galaxies also have their "galactic habitable zones":

http://tinyurl.com/lv2t5k6

(The Sun, by the way, is relatively metal-poor for a typical planet-hosting star, so maybe Hugh Ross should count it out as well.)

We already have one candidate planet outside the Milky Way, but it's in M31 -- a spiral galaxy.

Faizal Ali said...

Yes. And what response has it eliciited from Liar for Jesus Denny Cochran? An apology for lying to us and misrepresenting Richard Lewontin? A retraction? No. He has not replied to Joe's post and instead, just a few posts down, handwaves it away and repeats the lie about Lewontin's views.

That's why I have no hesitation in heaping insults and abuse upon the likes of Denny Cochran. He may superficially appear polite and courteous, but this sort of dishonesty is far more disrespectful than any insult.

Faizal Ali said...

When is Denny going to respond to my query as to the broken vitamin C gene in the great apes and humans and whether the sun actually stood still in the sky for a day as claimed in the Book of Joshua.

I guess those have not been discussed in his "primary source of scientific information, Reason To Believe." ROTFLMFAO!

steve oberski said...

@Denny I respectfully disagree.

Actually there is nothing respectful about your disagreement.

You have made no attempt at honestly evaluating the evidence, you flaunt and revel in your ignorance, you attribute base motives to some of the commenters here who are highly qualified (I am definitely not one of those people, being but an interested layperson) in the field of evolutionary biology and who have generously taken time out of their undoubtedly busy schedules in an attempt to assist you.

judmarc said...

Be very careful when evaluating seemingly plausible contentions from Hugh Ross. For example, he's said that if the Earth was just 1 or 2 percent closer to or further away from the Sun it would not be a favorable environment for life. This might pass unremarked until one realizes that distance from the Sun in Earth's elliptical orbit varies by more than 5%.

Cubist said...

sez judmarc: "Be very careful when evaluating seemingly plausible contentions from Hugh Ross. For example, he's said that if the Earth was just 1 or 2 percent closer to or further away from the Sun it would not be a favorable environment for life. This might pass unremarked until one realizes that distance from the Sun in Earth's elliptical orbit varies by more than 5%."
Yep. Other Creationists make an even more preposterously extravagant version of that claim—namely, that if the Earth was even so much as one mile closer to the Sun, or farther away from the Sun, that trivial change in orbital distance would render the Earth uninhabitable.
The closest Earth gets to the Sun (see also: "perihelion") is a bit under 91.5 million miles. The farthest Earth gets from the Sun (see also: "aphelion") is a hair over 94.5 million miles. The difference between the two is a little over 3 million miles… and it takes the Earth six months, half a year, to get from one to the other, and/or back again.
One year is a little over 31.5 million seconds; six months, therefore, is a bit over 15.75 million seconds.
If the Earth's orbital distance changed at a constant rate over the course of a year, it would take (15+ million / 3+ million =) about 5 seconds for the Earth's orbital distance to get one mile bigger or smaller. In reality, the amount of time it takes for the Earth's orbital distance to change by 1 mile varies over time.
Even so: If you want to know what the Earth would be like if its orbital distance were 1 mile different than it is right now? Wait a few seconds and see.

Piotr Gąsiorowski said...

Far be it from me to defend Hugh Ross's absurd calculations. I was only pointing out that elliptical galaxies are in fact likely to host fewer planets than spiral ones -- perhaps merely tens of billions rather than hundreds of billions each ;). It seems, however, that over 50% of catalogued galaxies are spiral and only 12% are elliptical:

http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/9603040v1.pdf

Unknown said...

Barbara –I do (quoting Barbara) “look at evolution” all the time. It’s in every science magazine, including NatGeo, every TV documentary, like “COSMOS”, and all nature programs. It’s the central hypothesis behind all scientific investigation. It forms the subjects of every scientific journal, as with Stephanie Keep NCSE, all of which are reviewed by a scientifically qualified staff at my primary source of scientific information, Reason To Believe (reasons.org). RTB publishes a critique on virtually all scientific discoveries almost every day of the week, always with sources, and sometimes with an Abstract. As to what judmarc and others are trying to explain to me, I understand that they are trying to convince me that evolution is not only the best, but also the only rational explanation for how we all got here. I respectfully disagree, based on the information I have cited. You may look at RTB’s link http://www.reasons.org/Search?q=classification+of+organisms%3B+ and see what I found, when I entered “classification of organisms.”

I think it’s fun to go for the big issue vs. wandering around in the weeds arguing over things that can’t be definitively proven. I’m referring to your truth claim. “Neither the universe in general nor the process of evolution provide meaning. That's simply true.” Yes, it is. And that truth, I think, makes your other comments a logical fallacy. More than once, now, you and other Sandwalk fans have said the universe doesn’t provide meaning and purpose. That’s because the universe is material. Material reality cannot provide something that transcends itself, ‘meaning and purpose.’ Yet, meaning and purpose are (in reality) intrinsic to human nature.

Therefore, Yes, I do reject evolution, but not solely because it is without meaning and purpose, but also because (progressive) creationism provides a more logical and more complete explanation for how we got here – and why. I reject evolution based on the actual scientific merits offered by the people who propose it. Further, I respectfully suggest that virtually all scientific discoveries and information (discovered by mostly naturalistic evolutionary scientists) fail to support cause by chance, probabilities, or some other unguided explanation. Design (by inference or in fact), is what inevitably appears in scientific discoveries/data, as a more likely cause. Last, I believe there are sufficient correlations between natural science data and natural phenomena mentioned in narrative form in the Bible to give the Bible a stronger basis for addressing both the issue of cause, and meaning and purpose.

Faizal Ali said...

Blah, blah, fucking blah.

Any chance you might actyally answer any of the several questions people have respectfully and courteously asked you, Denny?

John Harshman said...

That was just a repost of his previous comment. I can't imagine why he would do that, but there you are.

Faizal Ali said...

I hadn't noticed that. The two posts are similar, but not identical. Weird.

Piotr Gąsiorowski said...

It's getting creepy. To be sure, the very idea of choosing "Reasons to Believe" as one's "primary source of scientific information" already strains the imagination.

SRM said...

I don't know about that Judmarc. God may have quite purposefully created a universe where things like eyes, mousetraps, and bacterial flagella simply cannot arise by naturalistic processes. But then he decided they would be good to have around (oh yeah, and whole organisms too) and therefore stepped in with other magic powers to bring them about. I think you underestimate the versatility of that christian god.

Cubist said...

This is going to be a two-part response, on account of it breaks the blog's 4Kcharacter limit…

sez denny cochran: "I… 'look at evolution' all the time."
Do you really 'look at evolution all the time', denny cochran? Perhaps you do—but there's a chunk of dialogue from the movie A Fish Called Wanda which is highly relevant:
Otto: Apes don't read philosophy.
Wanda: Yes, they do Otto, they just don't understand it.


"It’s in every science magazine, including NatGeo, every TV documentary, like COSMOS, and all nature programs."
This sentence is true—but note what denny cochran does not say here. He does not say that he, himself has actually read any of those 'science magazines' he refers to, nor viewed any of those 'TV documentaries' he refers to, nor yet viewed any of those 'nature programs' he refers to. Therefore, denny cochran's words do not actually provide any grounds on which to conclude that he has actually read any of those 'science magazines' he refers to, or viewed any of those 'TV documentaries' he refers to, or viewed any of those 'nature programs' he refers to. One may reasonably wonder the alternate source(s) from which denny cochran is getting his information about those magazines/documentaries/programs he has not read/viewed… and one may, equally, reasonably wonder whether denny cochran has, in fact, read/viewed any of those magazines/documentaries/programs.

"It’s the central hypothesis behind all scientific investigation."
This sentence is false. Evolution can be considered the 'central hypothesis' of the field of biology, and on that basis, may be considered the 'central hypothesis behind all' biological 'scientific investigation—but evolution most certainly is not 'the central hypothesis behind all scientific investigation" [emphasis added] Because, like, biology is not the only field of science, you know? Here, denny cochran is either ignorant or lying, depending on whether or not he knows that what he wrote is false.

Cubist said...

Second part of a two-part response…

"[Evolution] forms the subjects of every scientific journal…"
This clause is patent bullshit. Evolution does not 'form… the subjects of every science journal' [emphasis added], because, as noted above, biology is only one of the many different fields of science.

"…all of which are reviewed by a scientifically qualified staff at my primary source of scientific information, Reason To Believe (reasons.org)."
Reasons To Believe. Hm.
From [ http://www.reasons.org/about/our-mission ]: "RTB's mission is to spread the Christian Gospel…", and "We believe the Bible is 100% without error / That includes all 66 books of the Old & New Testaments / Scripture is our supreme & final authority in all matters it addresses"
From the "support RTB" sidebar which is present on many pages of reasons.org: "Reasons to Believe is a ministry…"
From [ http://www.reasons.org/about/our-creation-model-approach ]: "The Bible (including Genesis 1–11) is the error-free word of God. / The message of nature will agree with what the Bible says."
That is what RTB, denny cochran's go-to source for scientific information and analysis, has to say for, and of, themselves. RTB is not a scientific organization; rather, RTB is a ministry, and RTB's primary focus is on spreading the Gospel. The staff of RTB may well be 'scientifically qualified', but given the fact that they absolutely refuse to even consider the possibility that the Bible might actually be wrong about stuff, RTB's staff is clearly not making good use of their scientific qualifications. And given the fact that RTB's 'President & Founder' made a patently farcical statement about how bad it would be for Earth if the Earth's orbital distance were even a couple percent different than it is, it's not at all clear why anybody should give credence to any of RTB's statements about science whatsoever. As the Word of God says, "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." (Luke 16:10)

The whole truth said...

Speaking of evolution, here are some articles for you guys and gals to ponder and comment about if you like:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140619142204.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140618220554.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140623225009.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140624092530.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140623131331.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140623094624.htm

Anonymous said...

Denny,

Slow to respond; its field season.

You wrote, "Your truth claim, I think, also makes the point that your acceptance of meaning and purpose as tied to evolution (a materialistic proposition) is a faith choice." I think you missed my point completely. Evolution doesn't provide meaning. We humans want meaning, but we won't find it in that theory. We may, however, find satisfactory meaning in our lives.

colnago80 said...

It's certainly not the central hypothesis of physics.

judmarc said...

Barbara -

Denny needs it to be true that your life can have meaning only through faith.

judmarc said...

Hi Piotr. Remember, be very careful.... :)

Here's something else Hugh Ross, though he must know it, doesn't mention in his sleight-of-hand about galaxies: They evolve. Elliptical galaxies evolve from interactions among spiral galaxies. So though those galaxies may be full of old low metallicity stars now, it wasn't always that way. Plenty of time (10+ billion years) for planets and life to have arisen and to be present in those galaxies now.

Dr. Ross is relying on you not to consider the age and dynamics of the universe when he makes statements that seem facially reasonable but depend on the false premise that the way things are now is the way they've always been.

Unknown said...

John said- “Denny, you can't expect anyone to take you seriously after that opening. That isn't science.” – John, Unless I’m mistaken, people actually doing science publish their findings. They expect people to read and judge their findings. That’s what RTB does, and with the scientific qualifications to do it credibly. Since you have looked at some of their information, you know that RTB is as qualified to interpret scientific findings as anyone.

John said - “That's http://www.reasons.org/Search?q=classification+of+organisms%3B+ just headlines.” I’m sure you saw that they are links to specifics on the topic. Maybe you’re a scientist. I’m not. I don’t have recall for all areas of science at every depth from years of lab work. I read the people and their papers who do. The papers and RTB’s critiques are valid for discussion.

John said – “Perhaps (a logical fallacy), but only because we choose our own meanings and purposes. That’s a type of logical fallacy too. I’m not talking in the subjective. I’m taking about the ‘ultimate.’

John said – “Sure, evolution doesn't give meaning to life. But how exactly does God give meaning to life? Have you ever thought about that?” – Of course I have thought about it. In most cases, that’s the kind of question that does not have an answer one word in length, or one page, or one book, or even in one library. Each person finds that answer in process and time. I live near Grand Rapids, MI. I’ll buy the coffee, if you want a genuine attempt at that answer.


John said – “How can you possibly know anything about the scientific merits if your only knowledge of science is filtered through a creationist source? Hint: they lie.” – Denny’s answer, How can you possibly know anything about the scientific merits if your only knowledge of science is filtered through a evolutionary naturalistic materialistic atheistic sources?

Hint: they lie.” –I can tell the difference between a lie and a worldview that influences interpretation.

Unknown said...

The whole truth said, - “what makes you think that meaning and purpose are intrinsic only to humans?” – I think it’s obvious in the record and empirical evidence of the morphology and anthropology of humans, vs. all other elements of our creation.

The whole truth said, - “What makes you think that meaning and purpose are "intrinsic"? – Do you know of any culture where these types of issues and questions were not raised by people? Do you see anything any empirical data showing that cockroaches contemplate their meaning or purpose in life?

The whole truth said, - “Are humans born with meaning and purpose?” – Yes. An open-minded reading of the Bible and conversation with mature Christians (not done over night) would show this. But, asking questions for the sole purpose of challenging another’s premise, with no intent to actually seek an answer, will not cut it.

The whole truth said, - “What exactly is the "intrinsic" meaning and purpose of a human?” – You have a lot of questions here. I’ll use this to make my point on intrinsic and meaning and purpose. Using a non-biblical source, “The Myth of Sisyphus,” by Albert Camus. “THE MYTH OF SISYPHUS. “THE CENTRAL CONCERN OF THE MYTH OF SISYPHUS IS WHAT CAMUS CALLS "THE ABSURD." CAMUS CLAIMS THAT THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL CONFLICT BETWEEN WHAT WE WANT FROM THE UNIVERSE (WHETHER IT BE MEANING, ORDER, OR REASONS) AND WHAT WE FIND IN THE UNIVERSE (FORMLESS CHAOS). WE WILL NEVER FIND IN LIFE ITSELF THE MEANING THAT WE WANT TO FIND. EITHER WE WILL DISCOVER THAT MEANING THROUGH A LEAP OF FAITH, BY PLACING OUR HOPES IN A GOD BEYOND THIS WORLD, OR WE WILL CONCLUDE THAT LIFE IS MEANINGLESS. CAMUS OPENS THE ESSAY BY ASKING IF THIS LATTER CONCLUSION THAT LIFE IS MEANINGLESS NECESSARILY LEADS ONE TO COMMIT SUICIDE. IF LIFE HAS NO MEANING, DOES THAT MEAN LIFE IS NOT WORTH LIVING? IF THAT WERE THE CASE, WE WOULD HAVE NO OPTION BUT TO MAKE A LEAP OF FAITH OR TO COMMIT SUICIDE, SAYS CAMUS. CAMUS IS INTERESTED IN PURSUING A THIRD POSSIBILITY: THAT WE CAN ACCEPT AND LIVE IN A WORLD DEVOID OF MEANING OR PURPOSE.

Barbara said...

Years ago I read of a lot of interesting things about animal behavior. For example, an oystercatcher (shorebird) was given the choice between its four normal-sized eggs moved to the right of its nest or one extra large fake egg an equal distance to the left. The bird chose the big egg, even when it was so big the bird could barely straddle it. The oversized egg was considered a "supernormal stimulus," much more appealing than the real thing.

We can live lives filled with realistic, human-scale meaning, even though the universe is devoid of purpose or meaning. We can love and care for grandchildren, for example. Or teach. Or add to human knowledge. (Camus' third way?)

Alternatively, we can seek huge, eternal, unrealistic meaning that qualifies as a "supernormal stimulus." We can imagine that kind of meaning and chase after it, like oystercatchers suckered by oversized eggs. Or like me eating too much good chocolate (so much more sugar and fat than would ever occur naturally!). Then I suppose we could think ourselves into suicide because the universe won't meet our unrealistic needs.

Personally, I find very satisfying meaning in teaching, writing, describing interesting plants, and loving and supporting a fine person. My guess is that you can find such meaning, too.

Faizal Ali said...

Unless I’m mistaken, people actually doing science publish their findings. They expect people to read and judge their findings. That’s what RTB does, and with the scientific qualifications to do it credibly. Since you have looked at some of their information, you know that RTB is as qualified to interpret scientific findings as anyone.

ROFLMAO! Funniest thing I've read all day.

Of course I have thought about it. In most cases, that’s the kind of question that does not have an answer one word in length, or one page, or one book, or even in one library. Each person finds that answer in process and time. I live near Grand Rapids, MI. I’ll buy the coffee, if you want a genuine attempt at that answer.

Translation: "Holy fuck, that's a good question! He's really got me there. Now how do I weasel out of this without letting on that he's just shot down my entire argument?"

I can tell the difference between a lie and a worldview that influences interpretation.

The difference being whether the person stating the falsehood is too stupid to realize it is false?

«Oldest ‹Older   201 – 246 of 246   Newer› Newest»