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Thursday, July 23, 2009

Shona Holmes and Canadian Health Care

Shona Holmes is a Canadian citizen. She suffered from a number of symptoms including dizziness and loss of vision. Her family doctor in Canada sent her for an MRI and the results suggested a brain tumor. Homes might have to wait months before seeing a neurologist for further tests. (This hasn't been confirmed, to my knowledge.)

Shona Holmes decided to fly to the the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale Arizona. There she was eventually diagnosed as having a Rathke's cleft cyst (RCC) in her brain. This is not a tumor and it is not life-threatening. It does, however, threaten her vision, which was already impaired.

Eventually, after more tests and at least one further visit to Scottsdale, the cyst was removed. It's not clear how long it took from making the first appointment at the clinic to the actual surgery but the article on the Mayo Clinic website suggests it was about a month. Incidentally, this article has been removed from the Mayo Clinic website but it is cached here.

The bottom line is that Holmes suffered from a non-life-threatening cyst that affected her vision and could have eventually led to blindness. She choose not to wait for treatment in Canada but to pay for treatment in Arizona.

Shona Holmes is suing the Government of Ontario in order to force it to revise and/or dismantle public health care. The suit [Lindsay McCreith and Shona Holmes/The Attorney General for the Province of Ontario] is being supported by the Canadian Constitution Foundation, a right-wing group that's described here.

To summarize, we have a patient with a non-life-threatening brain cyst who may or may not have had to wait a long time for treatment in Canada but choose to go to an American clinic where she was operated on after about a month. This patient is sufficiently opposed to Canada's health care system that she has collaborated with a right-wing group to sue the Government of Ontario for allegedly violating her rights.

Oh yes, one more little bit of information, this is the same Shona Holmes you see in this video warning Americans about the dangers of universal health care. This Shona Holmes was going to die of a brain tumor if she had stayed in Canada.

It's pretty clear that Holmes is not telling the truth in the TV ad. The only question is whether she "misinformed" the group Patients United Now or whether they pressured her into making untrue statements in the TV add. Canadian Cynic wants to know [Shona Holmes: Useful idiot or puppetmaster?].


  1. Yes, they have a great solution to our health care system's problems: base access to it on ones wealth. That will reduce the waiting lists considerably.

    At least it's good that she got treatment in Arizona. If she were an uninsured Arizonian she'd simply go blind.

  2. Just one question:

    An MRI suggests a tumor and after that a patient is told to wait "months" for further tests. Is that really typical in Canada?

  3. DK Said

    Just one question:

    An MRI suggests a tumor and after that a patient is told to wait "months" for further tests. Is that really typical in Canada?

    Not to the best of my knowledge. Granted the plural of anecdote isn't data but in my experience with family members and tumors and cancers of various kinds, diagnoses, tests, and treatments have all happened quite quickly.

    I know there can sometimes be wait time issues but it is a triage system, the worst cases always get bumped to the head of the line. The only real fix that the system needs here in Canada is renewed funding by the Federal Government.

  4. DK asks,

    An MRI suggests a tumor and after that a patient is told to wait "months" for further tests. Is that really typical in Canada?

    No it isn't. If it were typical then Canadians would have to be a bunch of idiots for putting up with such a system. Instead, they rate their health care system very highly—much higher than Americans rate their own system.

    We don't know how long Holmes would have waited to get further tests in Canada and we don't know how long she actually waited to get her tests in Arizona.

  5. You mentioned several times that her condition was not-life threatening. She would simply go blind. Is it acceptable in Canada for patients to go blind so that people with life threatening conditions go to the front of the line? Currently here in the US,I would not go blind. My insurance would simply pay for it. I like my system better than yours.

  6. She was interviewed last night (or night before) on CBC's "As it Happens." I was waiting to hear her say vaccines cause autism.

  7. I'm tired of Americans being so myopic about health care. Keep yer system. Let it bankrupt your nation. Let more and more Americans lose preventative care. Let it continually demoralize your community structure. I do not need to justify or explain why the Canadian system is amongst the best in the world while the American one ranks near the lowest of western developed nations. Simply examine an actuary table on infant mortality, longevity, maternal mortality etc...
    I have learned that facts are irrelevant to the general American psyche and the indoctrination caused by being told 'you are the best'. Choose any system you want. I'll keep the Canadian one and vote against ANYONE who smells of weakening it.

  8. Bill Carroll interviewed Ms. Holmes on CFRB (FOX north) this morning in Toronto. It was a definite attack on our health care system which he managed to turn into an attack on the McGuinty government.
    Once conservatives (American or Canadian)get their teeth in something, they'll gnaw away no matter how irrational their arguments are.

  9. conspunk says,

    Currently here in the US,I would not go blind. My insurance would simply pay for it. I like my system better than yours.

    You know, I think Linzel makes a good point in the comment above.

    If you think your system is so wonderful then you are welcome to it. Why should I care?

    If it doesn't bother you that you are being lied to and deceived then maybe you deserve exactly the system you've got.

    BTW, I'm delighted to hear that you can afford insurance. Who cares about all those people who are less fortunate? Let them die or go blind, right?

  10. Cushings, caused by a benign pituitary tumor, can indeed be fatal:

    And I know more than one person from Canada who has had to travel to the us and mortgage their house (and not certainly wealthy) in order to get treatment. One of them just flew to the US to pay $450 out of pocket to get an MRI to discover that her tumor had recurred. Her wait time in Canada -- a year or two -- for a much lower quality MRI as well.

  11. anonymous says,

    And I know more than one person from Canada who has had to travel to the us and mortgage their house (and not certainly wealthy) in order to get treatment. One of them just flew to the US to pay $450 out of pocket to get an MRI to discover that her tumor had recurred. Her wait time in Canada -- a year or two -- for a much lower quality MRI as well.

    OK, I give up. We Canadians have been trying to hide the fact that our system is rotten to the core but, as usual, Americans have ferreted out the truth.

    America is great. Keep your health care system and enjoy it in good health.

  12. My experiences with the Canadian health system have been both good and bad. Unfortunately, for me, the bad outweighs the good.

    Here are three bad outcomes for me:

    1. I had a prostate infection, but had to wait months to see a urologist. When I did so, the urologist told me, "Well, if I had seen you shortly after the infection, I could have prescribed antibiotics that would have killed the bacteria. Now it's too late; they hid inside incretions inside the prostate and cannot be gotten rid of with antibiotics. You'll have them the rest of your life."
    And he was right, at least so far.

    2. I had a severe and painful ear infection, and had to wait a month in pain to see an ear doctor. In the US I would have been seen immediately by an ear doctor. (I lived in the US for many years and know from experience.)

    3. Currently I have been waiting for months for arthroscopic surgery on my knee so I can walk without pain. I had to wait 2 months just for a 5-minute appointment with the orthopedist, who promised the surgery "soon", but has not contacted me yet.

    Don't get me wrong - the Canadian health system works well for chronic diseases, such as asthma, which respond well to proper medication and frequent monitoring by a doctor. That's one reason why the death rate from asthma in Canada is smaller than the death rate from asthma in the US.

    But let's not pretend that the Canadian system works better than the US system for all cases. It simply doesn't.

    When you have a scarce resource, you can limit it through rationing, or you can limit it through the free market. Both solutions have problems.

  13. CBC's "As it Happens" had a follow-up interview with an American who was curious about Canadian opinions about their health care system. That person apparently worked through a newspaper (in Vancouver, I think), soliciting a lot of opinions. Nearly all were very positive.

  14. I think what a few have said on here is just perfect and I concur. Who really cares if Americans don't want our system. It's their country, their health crisis. And in the end, it doesn't really matter what they think about Canada's health care, because we know different!

  15. For the love of Mike, people. Have a look at the Mayo Clinic's website, where some of Shona Holmes story is posted. You will note it's somewhat different story than all the headlines might have implied. Her "brain tumour" was NOT a malignancy - it was a Rathke's Cleft Cyst on her pituitary gland, which is not a true tumor or neoplasm (i.e. cancer). It is classed as a slow growing benign cyst.

    And yeah, it needed eventual attention and treatment, and she did have appointments with the appropriate specialists in Ontario. They weren't immediate appointments because this was NOT some life or death situation. She chose not to wait the few months to see the docs lined up for her.

    This is not about the failure of a health care system to address someone's serious issue. This is about a person whose doctors determined things could wait, but who was too anxious to do so. Every medical system HAS to do some level of triage. She didn't happen to like how they classed her.

    Mary G.

  16. We're missing the point here. Her eye sight was failing ... Take the tumor out now!! In my opion, one month is too long. DK asked the right question "is that really typical in Canada? YES, I know from personal experience. My wife went to Mayo Clinic in Rochester, MN years ago because of our health care taking too long meanwhile here legs were going numb. Frightening! As it turned out .... Mayo found out she had something similar to Fibromyalgia and a B12 problem. They knew right away by a simple blood test! I'm rambling here... my point is the wait times here in Canada are TRUE.. and getting worse.

  17. To add to the anecdotes ...

    I am Canadian, lived in the US for a little over a year.

    Although it sometimes took a couple of phone calls to find a family doctor accepting patients (in Saskatoon, Calgary, Toronto), I have been able to find good doctors in convenient locations. I've been amused seeing American comments warning about the government telling individuals who their doctor must be. I've had far more choice in Canada than I did when living in the US. My health insurance (considered good) gave me a list of doctors to choose from. Not a long list.

    I have had two MRIs and a CAT scan on different occasions. Luckily I was in Canada. I have never paid a cent for any of the tests I've undergone, and anything to do with my brain has been handled very quickly. Yes, one time I was in an emergency room for a few hours ... but early after admission, it was determined I wasn't in immediate danger.

    One of my younger colleagues in the company where I worked in the US had an accident ski-boarding, shattered a vertebra. She had several surgeries and required rehabilitation. This was complicated by repeated conflicts with our health insurer, who initially denied several of the fees, and tried to push her towards an inappropriate (but less expensive) rehabilitation facility, geared for geriatric patients. Even with our "good" health care plan, she ended up with over $25K in debt.

    These are anecdotes - true, but in terms of evidence, not terribly meaningful. However, it is annoying to see anecdotes twisted, as in the case of Shona Homes. (Was there immediate risk to her eyesight? Should she have been able to jump the queue of other individuals requiring neurosurgery? We don't know, but I do know other individuals with brain tumours who were scheduled for surgery in well under a month in Ontario, which is why I ask those questions.)


  18. Anonymous says,

    Take the tumor out now!! In my opion, one month is too long.

    First of all, it wasn't a tumor.

    Second of all, we don't have any real basis for comparison. According to the Mayo Clinic website it was at least a month from the time Holmes contacted the clinic until her operation. It may have been longer for all we know.

    We don't know how long she would have waited in Canada. All we have is her word and that's been totally discredited.

  19. Hilarious.
    Truly. All this anecdotal evidence that kinda....smells.

    In the end, 85% of Canadians are happy.
    Wait times are getting shorter. Health outcomes in Canada are better. We live longer, infant mortality is lower, there are next to no medical bankruptcies.
    18,000 Americans die every year from lack of healthcare. People with broken bones are sent home from emergency rooms with no cast, and a big bill.
    By all means keep what you got America. Keep telling yourself you are the BEST! And keep in mind that you can always see a Dr in a cattle barn.
    Don't like facts? Fine. But stop lying.
    The google is your freind.

  20. I just saw this post. Had to comment.

    Anonymous writes:
    And I know more than one person from Canada who has had to travel to the us and mortgage their house (and not certainly wealthy) in order to get treatment. One of them just flew to the US to pay $450 out of pocket to get an MRI to discover that her tumor had recurred. Her wait time in Canada -- a year or two -- for a much lower quality MRI as well.

    I detect the smell of BS.

    Because cerebral aneurysms have killed both my mother and her father, the rest of us direct offspring have been strongly advised to have MRIs every two years. Just to check.

    I haven't been as diligent in doing this as perhaps I should, but when I have, the average wait time between visiting my doctor and the MRI itself has been about four weeks.

    A month. And that is for essentially nothing. *Nobody* I know has had to wait months for *anything*, especially if there is actually something found.

  21. Shona Holmes had a Rathke's Cleft Cyst. It was non life threatening. She did not have Cushing's. She sold herself to Patients United Now. Last week I asked the Mayo Clinic to verify her claims or, if she's lying, demand that they pull the ad to avoid the Mayo Clinic looking bad. Ironically, the ad seems to have disappeared just after my email.

    I've had personal experience with three surgeries in my lifetime, almost 60 years.

    (1)A hemi-neuphrectomy from a football injury .. 4 days (2 of which were for tests)

    (2) Layngial lesion.. the time from GP to Otolaryngologist to surgical removal of lesion and vocal cord reconstruction ... total of 16 days..

    (3) Bypass surgery... 2 1/2 days.

    Average wait for non emergency CT scans or MRI's 3 weeks.

  22. And I'm still waiting, here in Canada, for my arthroscopic knee surgery.

    Just how long do the commenters here think I should have to wait?

  23. The counter point to Shona Holmes

  24. To Jeffrey Shallit, I am sorry for you suffering, but to answer the "how long should I wait?" question, I would offer "until everyone in line ahead of you has the treatment done first".

    Should certain target areas receive more specialists to do specific procedures? Sure! But this problem has to do with how many doctors we train, and their area of specialty. Not the health care system that pays for you treatment. I wish these two issues would be more clearly separated in these ongoing health care system debates.

  25. But the point is, "TheotherJim", that if I were living in the US I would have had my surgery long, long ago. In fact, in Ontario the government has reallocated resources to speed up knee replacements, with the result that those of us that just need arthroscopic surgery have to wait... and wait... and wait.

    As I said, there are many good things about the Canadian system, but let's not pretend it has no flaws.

  26. As I said, there are many good things about the Canadian system, but let's not pretend it has no flaws.

    Not pretending it has no flaws. I just get really annoyed with this constant confusion between our healthcare system versus problems that are independent of who pays. Most Canadian complaints about the "heathcare system" are actually complaints about the number of / distribution of doctors and specialists.

    The number of doctors trained per year are set by provincial colleges of physicians and governments. Free market health insurance (the real topic of debate in this case) has nothing to do with it. How would having private health insurance fix a lack of doctors?

  27. Hello friends. With the support of others, we have produced a video response to the Shona Holmes 'anti-public-healthcare ad', which is circulating on youtube, and now on TV in the US - an attack on the Canadian health care system and President Obama's proposed health care reform.

    It would be appreciated if you would take a moment to look at the 2 video's (ours as well as the original).

    This is the link to the original "Shona Holmes Ad - Against Nationalization of Health Care":

    Here is the link: to our response.

    In case the links do not work, you can go to Youtube and search 'shona holmes ad' and 'shona holmes response'.

    If you like, you can rate or comment on our video, and please forward the links to other friends who may be interested.

    with thanks
    Don and Cora

  28. We don't know how long she would have waited in Canada. All we have is her word and that's been totally discredited.

    No, we have published data on median waiting times in Canada. For neurosurgery, the median wait time is 31.7 weeks. It's getting worse, not better. And since RCC is not 'life threatening' (symptomatic RCC destroys your pituitary in over 80% of cases and causes irreversible vision loss in 1/3 of patients, but I guess you've just got irreversible panhypopituitarism and are blind, you're not dead), who knows if she would indeed have had surgery within 31.7 weeks?

    By the way, like 81% of Americans, I'm satisfied with or health care system, and will gladly take your advice to keep it the way it is.

  29. It's not private health insurance that is the issue - it is that decisions about what health care to offer and how uch to pay for it are made centrally, as opposed to being driven by user demand. The reason why I could get arthroscopic surgery more quickly in the US is because physicians can get well compensated for opening up clinics where this surgery is performed.

    Personally, I favor a mixed system, where a basic level of care is provided to everyone, and those who wish to pay for additional levels of service can do so. Canada already has a mixed system in effect, since those who want to can travel to the States. Why not make it a legitimate alternative inside Canada?

  30. Shona Holmes would have had to wait six months for surgery in Ontario, Canada. During this time she was losing her vision. Cushing’s syndrome was also contributing to her condition which is a serious medical condition. I think the Mayo Clinic was doing various tests to sort out her condition and treatments, but this doesn’t meant that this lady was not ill or that the surgery was not urgent. Obviously, she was going blind making her operation urgent.

    In Canada, the waiting lists are often too long even for urgent conditions, just as the US needs healthcare reform so does Canada. Both countries have problems and despite this what may confuse Americans is that Canadians will defend the system to the death. Unfortunately, they need to honest, and admit there are many problems and that some people are indeed dying waiting for heart surgery, etc.

    Here’s another article pertaining to a man, he was forced to wait for a year to have skull surgery in Ontario.

    Year-long wait for skull surgery

  31. I have had family and friends with cancer have to wait weeks and months to receive cancer care in Canada. This first involves the meeting with an oncologist and something initial meeting with a radiologist. Possible further tests are discussed along with treatments. It seems even when one experiences an urgent medical condition, like a cancer diagnosis that it takes forever to get the ball rolling.

    Canadian healthcare is not all that great, really, especially if someone needs "immediate" care, because they tend to wait a long time.

  32. This story is unfolding. I noticed issues a couple of weeks ago, wrote about it then, when stories are being spread about Canadians who were having problems with our system. Thanks for providing this information.
    My father was diagnosed with a brain tumour in 2003, and had successful surgery a month later.

  33. I wrote her a letter today...doubt she'll ever read it.
    I basically pointed out that she went off half-baked without doing her homework.
    There a bunch of interesting links there too. I posted the letter to my blog today if anyone is interested in reading this.
    Her lies, melodrama & actions as of late are very dangerous...for both sides of the border.
    Our system isn't perfect. It needs reforms & I would support the same thing France has (top ranked in the world where there is a mix of private & public...everybody has access because coverage for all is manditory in France.
    I watched her thing in youtube...funny hearing a rich woman moan about discrimination...'against diseases'. Something tells me she believes she should pass before a child with an actual malignant brain tumour whose family has no money or coverage.
    She obviously cares about no one but herself.
    As for that blindness...check Dr Rolando del Maestro's statement on this
    I would much rather a system that bases its priorities on urgency rather than socio-economic class

  34. To Jeffrey Shallit: No one is stopping you from going to the States for your surgery...I think you can have it done here in Quebec now that we for profit facilities...for a price.
    You say that if you were state side, you would have had your surgery by now..KACHING!! For a price, yeah. No getting out of that over there. Don't get me started on insurance state side...once you've had that surgery under their current system, you would then have 'a pre-existing condition' thus getting coverage would be problematic indeed...check this out:
    Pay particular attention to the Beaton who's insurance cut her off because of acne & a fast heart beat. Also take a look at the bottom of the following article where the daughter of a politician, a nurse can't get coverage because she can't afford it:
    So think about this... would you really want to live in a system where priorities are sorted by socio-economic class or by urgency?
    As for that knee surgery of your's...your choice, but I can tell you my father had that arthroscopic surgery in the same knee twice & his knee keeps getting progressively worse anyway. I have refused this surgery seeing what my father lives through.My knee has remained the same--good days/bad days..don't listen to me, a stranger blogger necessarily, just sharing anecdotal experience.
    Anyway, best of luck,

  35. Larry, it is NOT TRUE that the Shona Holmes story was removed from the Mayo Clinic website. Check it out. It is there!

  36. Susie Q, yes it is still there, but there is a disclaimer at the bottom of the page:

    Also, look at an open letter to Congress dated July will see that even the Mayo supports Obama's plan for reform or at least in part..

  37. Jeffrey, you knee surgery is not life threatening. I had the same and waited for 7 months to get the surgery. I didn't feel slighted.

    You DO have choices here in Canada. You can travel to other provinces and have some out of pocket expenses and have it done earlier.

    You CAN travel to the states and have it done almost entirely out of pocket and a lot quicker.

    Just don't expect our healthcare system to pay for it when you return. (as Ms. Holmes is doing)

    Ms. Holmes had legitimate health care concerns which were being taken care of on a triage basis; she made the choice to remortgage her home, to refuse the Canadian system and have it done earlier.

    I have also read that 98% vision recovery is expected after surgery. (not the 60% stated earlier by another poster)

    Her lies and vilification of those in our system leave me cold. I would like her to move to the states and pursue all of her future medical costs in the states.

    Our system isn't perfect, but we need not pay for those who are better then other's who feel they should have been placed ahead of life threatening surgery.

  38. It's sad to read how the Professor is so quick to distort the truth in this matter.

    It's even more sad to see how many people follow his propaganda like lemmings.

    The truth is that the initial diagnosis was a brain tumor. It was not initially diagnosed as RCC. Given that she was told she had a brain tumor that was causing vision problems, and other serious health issues, she was very concerned when the Canadian health system said that it would take months to get an appointment for further treatment.

    That is the sole reason she went to the US. If the first diagnosis was RCC, then events might have played out differently. In Canada.

    She didn't lie, only our dear Professor here, who - in my view - is a person who is nothing more than a disingenuous propagandist for the left, is lying. Come to think of it, most propagandists are disingenuous.

    Please look for trustworthy comment in other places than here, based on his work on this matter.

  39. Except whomever you are; she did the ads about a few years AFTER everything was said & done. She already knew she had a Rathke's Cleft Cyst; that she was not going to die; that surgery always reverses the vision issues. Therefore, given the timeline, she knowingly lied on those fear mongering ads.

    Also, for those who may be feeling sorry for her or for those who are complaining about not having timely treatment; I know in Toronto there are at least 2 private clinics; Can Med & that American outfit ( & they say NAFTA couldn't touch our health care), the Cleveland. If you all have money to jump the queue, don't have to go to the U.S.

  40. Dear Professor Disingenuous,

    I am not a fool like your students. Please stop insulting my intelligence sir.

    When Ms. Holmes made the commercial is irrelevant to the truth of her story, and you should know that. It's like me saying that whatever tales you recall from your youth are no longer true, simply because they happened so long ago. I say you never earned a college degree. You bought it off the Internet. Must be true - happened years ago, eh?

    What she recounts is historically correct.

    Indeed, her Doctors said she had a brain tumor and that she would have to wait months to get it looked at. Hence, her decision to get treatment immediately, which was refused to her in Canada.

    That is not a lie. Unlike your disingenuous revisionist history lesson in your above post.

    Do your students actually believe the socialist tripe you pass off to them as truth?

    I hope that I'm wrong on that count. But based on the evidence at this website, I'm pretty sure I'm not.

  41. Well, we now understand that other anonymous... make a point, then when CK makes an interesting counter-point, you revert to the "socialist" card, start the typical Reform Party lines, and start name-calling.

    Are you an active member of the CPC, or just a fanatical follower?

    (pst... CK is not the one who writes the blog... you seem to have missed that point. Failing at reading comprehension sort of weakens your credibility regarding your other statements).

  42. Well, well, well... I see that people with no argument continue to use the tired technique of changing the argument in order to "win". Not to forget the other tired technique of attacking the person responding to the lies posted here.


    I see that, like most liberals/socialists, they are unable to discuss the truth about their propaganda. I was hoping that someone would actually be able to disprove my points. revert to the "socialist" card, ; now THAT is a compelling counter-point! Well said!!


    Well, we now understand that other anonymous... make a point, then when CK makes an interesting counter-point...

    Let's see, where is this alleged counter-point? I didn't find one. He did remark that because Ms.Holmes's commercials were filmed years after her actual experience with the Canadian health care system, this somehow nullifies the veracity of the facts in her story.


    Facts are truth. Facts are how one proves their stance (I grow tired of having to educate the ignorant liberals in this area).

    Failed defence of your stance. Failed attempt to prove my stance wrong.

    Just like socialism. A failing/failed political philosophy. Proven throughout history.

    Why doesn't whoever writes this blog disprove, with facts, why Ms. Holmes' claims are untrue?

    Because you can't. Because her story is true.

    Writing fiction as a response does not qualify as truth, fact, evidence.

    Sad that the likes of you have a vote. You ostriches.

  43. Hey folks... don't feed the trolls.

    In other words,"you win Anonymous".

    The liberals here can't get away with defamation and character assassination of Ms. Holmes which, in my view, is exactly what has been done.

    It's sad to see, once again, how you liberals continually use these disgusting techniques to try and brainwash ignorant people into believing your lies.

    Ah, yes. Lies sold as truth. Liberalism is truly a mental disorder.

    Thanks for proving it yet again.

  44. "At least it's good that she got treatment in Arizona. If she were an uninsured Arizonian she'd simply go blind."

    Dear Richard the ignorant,

    If she lived in any state in the US, she would've simply done what the millions of illegal immigrants and other poor do.. just walk into an Emergency Room and receive free treatment. They can't turn anyone away from the hospital down there, which is the main reason that the people that do pay for health insurance pay so much.

    Why do you people not know anything of which you write?

  45. Ah... now I recognize you... you were the Black Knight!

    "I'm invincible"

  46. Sorry Other Jim, I know, Don't feed the trolls & you're right, but I must refute something from Anonymous.
    "If she lived in any state in the US, she would've simply done what the millions of illegal immigrants and other poor do.. just walk into an Emergency Room and receive free treatment. They can't turn anyone away from the hospital down there"

    I wonder if Dawnelle Keys was aware of that when her 18 month old baby girl was turned away because she wasn't at the 'right' hospital. Watch & listen to Dawnelle's story. Do you honestly think that that is morally right? This also refutes the arguement of American nay-sayers being led to believe that the gov't will choose your doctor or professional if reform goes through.
    Yah, So much better it is to have the corporate insurance company do that for you, isn't it??
    Also, even if she did turn up in an ER & they agreed to see her; they probably would have sent her home with a 'scrip' for aspirin; they wouldn't have performed the surgery without being paid.
    Also, a testimonial from a Doctor with a heavy conscience about allowing her patient to die due to insurance issues:
    Hey Other Jim, I don't think he's the 'Black Knight'. It's It's Super Mario of CMPI! I recognize that poor writing style anywhere!!

  47. Ah.. I'm glad that you all are still proving me right.

    Let's stop living in liberal-land between the ears. Let's get back to reality.

    CK, go re-read the original post because that's what we are supposed to be debating here.

    Did Ms. Holmes lie about what happened to her years ago or not?

    Is the good Professor (I mean - who writes this blog if not for the guy at the top with the picture and self description?) performing character assassination on Ms. Holmes?

    A troll. Apparently a troll has a far better grasp on the truth than you liberals.


    P.S. Thanks for feeding this troll.

  48. anonymous asks,

    Did Ms. Holmes lie about what happened to her years ago or not?

    Yes, she lied.

    Is the good Professor (I mean - who writes this blog if not for the guy at the top with the picture and self description?) performing character assassination on Ms. Holmes?

    Yes, I am impugning her character.

    Anything else you'd like to know?

  49. Mr. Moran,

    Thank you for putting in writing, another example of how ignorant people such as yourself care not about the truth, the facts, or reality in pursuit of propagandizing your students and anyone else whom you can fool - apparently many.

    To your last question to me:

    Do you believe as true, that Ms. Holmes' doctors first diagnosed the cause of her deteriorating vision was caused by a "brain tumor"?

    Do you believe as true, that Ms. Holmes was told at the time of her diagnosis, that she would have to wait months to receive further investigation/treatment for her "brain tumor"?

    Do you believe that any reasonable person would be very afraid of this "brain tumor" being cancerous and therefore isn't it also reasonable that they should have it looked into immediately?

  50. Dear Professor Disingenuous,

    Thank you for your tacit agreement to my last post.

    Or, perhaps, you've suddenly become to busy.

    Or... less likely, you've decided that you have been exposed as the lying propagandist for the left that I believe you are.

    Or.. perhaps the legal dep't has informed you of the thin ice you just might be skating on. You know, defamation of character and libel.

    BTW, Darwin was a Christian. Such that he was in the ministry/seminary. Granted, his work later in life made him struggle with this philosophy.

    But finding that out would require you doing some actual research, and keeping an open mind (which, btw, researchers are supposed to do anyway.

    Very much not likely for the likes of you and your ilk. Faux intellectuals, that are really political activists.

  51. shona holmes is a liar and misrepresents the Canadian health care sysyem.She had a benign cyst!!! not a brain tumor.

    Shona a liar and a traitor

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  53. At the time those fear-mongering TV ads were shown on TV this last summer, Ms. Holmes knew that her life was never in danger, and yet she stood there and said that she would have died under the Canadian health care system. That has been shown to be NOT TRUE.

    I knew the first time I saw that ad on TV that it was a tactic of the conservative right, the insurance industry, and the pharmaceutical industry, or all three combined. They want us to be afraid of changing a system that is badly broken, under which people are suffering even as we speak. Thank you so much Ms. Holmes, for doing your part to frighten the American people away from the very change that we so badly need. Thank you so much for helping those who profit off of human misery, but they really didn't need your help. Our elected officials sell us out EVERY TIME on this issue (because they are bought and paid for with the industry's blood money), despite the fact that the majority of Americans want a single payer government run health system, and we're going to get it, what we don't know is when, because it's going to take a revolution from within, when enough people wake up and band together and DEMAND that we get what every other industrialized nation has.

    I should forgive you Ms. Holmes, because I'm sure you don't know the reality of what you defended or helped to do. Even with insurance, people go bankrupt and lose their homes when someone in the family gets a serious illness. Some of those people are refused the treatment they need if it's too expensive and the insurance company wants to get out of it, in which case they're pretty much condemned to die unless they can raise the money for their treatment.

    I should forgive you Ms. Holmes, for defending and making yourself part of the problem with the most inhumane, barbaric, and unjust health care system in the world. A person would have to be ignorant, blind, or as misinformed about America as Americans are regularly misinformed and given a distorted truth about health care in Canada.

    To my fellow Americans reading this who think that they're safe because they have insurance, I hope you never get a serious medical condition that needs treatment that the insurance company can label "experimental" to get out of paying for it.

    Let's stop insulting Canada. People in glass houses should not throw stones, and we live in the biggest glass house there is.