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Sunday, June 10, 2007

Was Bertrand Russell an Atheist or an Agnostic?

John Wilkins has posted an article on whether Bertrand Russell was an agnostic or an atheist [What is an Agnostic? by Bertrand Russell]. John links to an essay by Russell where he defines agnostic as,
An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.
This is a definition we can all agree on. I am an agnostic, as is John Wilkins and Richard Dawkins.

Bertrand Russell goes on to define atheist as,
An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not.
This is not correct. There are many people who have decided not to believe in Gods and they live their lives as if there were no Gods. However, they do not maintain that the nonexistence of Gods is known for certain. They believe that that it's impossible to prove a negative. These people call themselves atheists and they think that this is true to the original root meaning of the word ("not a theist"). Many of us are atheists and agnostics.

Russell knows that there is a difference between the philosophical concept of being unable to prove a negative and the practical, day-to-day, behavior of believers and non-believers. In another essay (Am I An Atheist Or An Agnostic?) he says,
Here there comes a practical question which has often troubled me. Whenever I go into a foreign country or a prison or any similar place they always ask me what is my religion.

I never know whether I should say "Agnostic" or whether I should say "Atheist". It is a very difficult question and I daresay that some of you have been troubled by it. As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one prove that there is not a God.

On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.

None of us would seriously consider the possibility that all the gods of homer really exist, and yet if you were to set to work to give a logical demonstration that Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, and the rest of them did not exist you would find it an awful job. You could not get such proof.

Therefore, in regard to the Olympic gods, speaking to a purely philosophical audience, I would say that I am an Agnostic. But speaking popularly, I think that all of us would say in regard to those gods that we were Atheists. In regard to the Christian God, I should, I think, take exactly the same line.

There is exactly the same degree of possibility and likelihood of the existence of the Christian God as there is of the existence of the Homeric God. I cannot prove that either the Christian God or the Homeric gods do not exist, but I do not think that their existence is an alternative that is sufficiently probable to be worth serious consideration. Therefore, I suppose that that on these documents that they submit to me on these occasions I ought to say "Atheist", although it has been a very difficult problem, and sometimes I have said one and sometimes the other without any clear principle by which to go.

When one admits that nothing is certain one must, I think, also admit that some things are much more nearly certain than others. It is much more nearly certain that we are assembled here tonight than it is that this or that political party is in the right. Certainly there are degrees of certainty, and one should be very careful to emphasize that fact, because otherwise one is landed in an utter skepticism, and complete skepticism would, of course, be totally barren and completely useless.
Bertrand Russell was not a Christian as the essays in his book, Why I Am Not a Christian demonstrated. Some of these essays lead to a famous court case in 1940 where Russell was declared unfit to teach at City College because his moral views were too permissive.

Above all, Russell was a rationalist who opposed superstition. His views on religion, written back in 1927, still sound familiar today.
Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. Fear is the basis of the whole thing—fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. It is because fear is at the basis of these two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by the help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion, against the churches, and against the opposition of all the old precepts.

Science can help us get over this craven fear in which mankind has lived for so many generations. Science can teach us, and I think our own hearts can teach us, no longer to look around for imaginary supports, to longer to invent allies in the sky, but rather to look to our own efforts here below to make this world a fit place to live in, instead of the sort of place that the churches in all these centuries have made it.

40 comments :

John S. Wilkins said...

As Russell got his definition of an atheist in first, he wins...

Anonymous said...

John Wilkins has never said a single thing that would get him out of Teapot-land.

Anonymous said...

Russell was the first person to define "atheist"? I don't believe it, John. You might consider how science is done, for instance in a paper where they explicitly lay out just what they mean by a certain term, which may or may not exactly line up with a standard dictionary term -- in fact it often doesn't, or can't, because most words have more than one shade of meaning. Russell simply made clear what he was talking about in his work -- I rather doubt he was actually attempting to dictate what everyone must believe. He'd leave that to the Christians. :)

micokoch said...

Completely unrelated, but I'd love to read an informed opinion on Craig Venter's attempt to patent his method of "creating an organism". I don't mean in any religious sense, but rather the limits of ownership by individuals or corporations. I'm a complete atheist, but I have a serious problem with patents and copyrights, especially insofar as they pertain to processes. I'd love to know your opinion. Just curious.

Anonymous said...

on Craig Venter's attempt to patent his method of "creating an organism".

Hey why not, if you can register as a trademark a chapter and verse Biblical citation: Ezekiel 4:9 grain products

TheBrummell said...

Dan Barker of the blog Reason and Rhyme had some interesting musings on this subject back in January:

http://reason-and-rhyme.blogspot.com/2007/01/atheism-defined.html

Unknown said...

With respect to John Wilkins, he seems to be ignoring Thomas Huxley.

It was Huxley after all who coined the term "agnostic" and from what John and Larry have said there is no disagreement about what he meant by that term.

However Huxley also considered himself an atheist for the reason that if it was not possible to know whether something existed or not it was a total waste of time, and there was no rational basis for assuming it does.

As I understand it this is position taken by Larry, PZ and Richard. And I would add myself, not that I in anyway belong in that company!

Anatoly said...

I could have said better myself.

Anonymous said...

It may be impossible to disprove the existence of a generic "God", but it is certainly possible to disprove the existence of a "Christian" (ie, "just") God. The evidence is everywhere you look.

--Jim

Anonymous said...

Larry Moran said: "These people call themselves atheists and they think that this is true to the original root meaning of the word ('not a theist')."

Sorry, not so. From the Oxford English Dictionary: "ORIGIN from Greek a- 'without' + theos 'god.'"

So, an atheist believes we are "without God(s)," while an agnostic (a- + gnossos) believes we are "without knowledge" regarding the matter.

You don't claim to have final knowledge of the (non)existence of God(s), so that would seem to make you an agnostic. The fact that you conduct your life as if there is no God indicates you haven't taken Pascal's wager, but whether it makes you an atheist is at least open to a bit of discussion IMHO.

Larry Moran said...

Jud says,

You don't claim to have final knowledge of the (non)existence of God(s), so that would seem to make you an agnostic.

That's correct. I am agnostic with respect to the existence of Gods. I am also agnostic with respect to the existence of lots of other things such as the tooth fairly and Santa Claus.

The fact that you conduct your life as if there is no God indicates you haven't taken Pascal's wager, but whether it makes you an atheist is at least open to a bit of discussion IMHO.

I am not a theist and I am without Gods. That makes me an atheist. What would you like to discuss?

Anonymous said...

I am without gods and the only reason that the existence of gods is considered "unknowable" is that the believers keep moving the goal-posts whenever one of their "facts" about the gods is proved lacking. The believers are running out of "unknowable" options. We have shrunken the space in which the gods can hide to the first thousand-trillionth of the first second of our Universe's existence. Someday, perhaps, we'll finish them off entirely.

Torbjörn Larsson said...

"such as the tooth fairly"

Ah, the fairly and sweet tooth.

The different philosophical definitions of atheism and agnosticism changes over time ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism ), so one needs to be careful to include ones own definitions. I wouldn't agree with Russell's old definitions, and I wouldn't agree with Larry's contemporary.

But I would roughly agree with their conclusions. :-)

Anonymous said...

It's a fallacy to say believing there is not a God requires proving a negative. Believing there is not a God, is another way of saying you hold the positive belief that the universe is just a mindless machine and we are its accidental byproducts. That believe requires proof and Russell's original assertion was correct

Ishmael said...

Great discussion! In terms of the practical implications for the way one conducts one's life, I suppose it's fine to say that one can be both an atheist and an agnostic (just as one can be both a liberal and a libertarian, for example), but I think doing so blurs the very important philosophical distinction that Russell was pointing to. In his view (and I believe he is correct), there is no real epistemological difference between atheists and believers because both assert as fact something that is unknowable. The position of the agnostic--not knowing--is the only truly scientific answer one can offer in the face of metaphysical questions.

Drew said...

jud, you are confused. "ism" implies a doctrine: atheism implies that someone is without that DOCTRINE, i.e. just what Larry and others have said: without God BELIEFS.

You can say that you are an agnostic till you are blue in the face: it still doesn't answer the question of whether you believe in a god or not. Either you do or your don't, and if you don't, virtually everyone, even those people who insist that only the strong definition of "atheist" is valid, will then call you an atheist (implicitly using the "weak" definition).

Torbjörn Larsson said...

"there is no real epistemological difference between atheists and believers because both assert as fact something that is unknowable. The position of the agnostic--not knowing--is the only truly scientific answer one can offer in the face of metaphysical questions."

Ah, but you don't consider that we can't currently define the boundaries of empirical methods. Certain religious beliefs are falsified, dualisms are debunked, natural theories lends credence to naturalism, et cetera.

I wish I could have the solid faith of the agnostic on their basic assumption. Alas, as an atheist I can never be so certain. :-)

Anonymous said...

I can't disprove that there is an ether either (I always wanted to say that).

But it adds nothing of substance to scientific discussions, so everyone but the crackpot Einstein-debunkers ignores it.

The same is true with god(s). :-)

--Jim

Anonymous said...

My biggest issue with this whole semantic game is that fundamentalists use it to argue that atheism is a religion and therefore is being afforded special status by the US government. If not believing in a deity is a religion, then not playing chess is a hobby and someone who doesn't watch sports is a fan.

John Pieret said...

Ah, but you don't consider that we can't currently define the boundaries of empirical methods.

So someday you hope to be an atheist? ;-)

Anonymous said...

drew, nope, not confused. Larry Moran is saying he does not believe definitively either that God exists or doesn't (a state of mind that you appear to say is impossible, but that I *believe* I share with Larry;-). What I also understand Larry to be saying is that the fact that he conducts his life "without gods," in spite of his lack of a definitive belief that there is no God, qualifies him as an atheist. I feel the matter is open to discussion, because I wonder which takes primacy: belief that there is no God, or conducting oneself "without gods."

Hello Torbjörn. :-)

Here is a version, shortened so a bit oversimplified, of why I think agnosticism is a more reasonable scientific position in comparison to atheism, based on current scientific knowledge.

First, the classic sky daddy, with his micromanagement of all (particularly Earthly) things, supernatural powers, and requirement of worship, is right out if we are to restrict ourselves to possibilities that can legitimately be called scientific.

With that background, then: In current cosmology/high energy physics, the existence of multiple universes with varying physical laws is a quite viable hypothesis. It is also a viable scientific hypothesis that one or more universes could be created intentionally (i.e., there is serious discussion regarding what the necessary initial conditions for such intentional creation might be).

So it must be considered a serious scientific possibility that one or more universes, including our own, might have been created intentionally by a sentient being. One of the common "tags" for God is Creator of the Universe, is it not?

To the extent that the physical laws of the created universe could possibly be controlled by a creator at inception, this creator would also have the attribute Einstein described when he likened discovering the laws of physics to knowing the mind of God.

A third characteristic such a being might share with historical descriptions of God is that it could possess power that would either seem supernatural (Clarke's "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"), or would actually be outside the laws governing our universe, since the universe inhabited by the creator might not have identical physical laws to our own.

Finally, a fourth attribute such a being might share with historical descriptions of God is that of source of a higher morality. (Yeah, I know how that sounds, but there's a non-supernatural explanation.) After all, as has been conjectured in any number of science fiction books, or movies such as "The Day the Earth Stood Still," members of a society that has reached an extremely high level of technology (over, presumably, a rather long period of time) without killing themselves might conceivably have something to teach us about how to treat each other.

Since with the current state of cosmology/high energy physics it is impossible to say with any reasonable scientific certainty that beings with the God-like attributes described above do *not* exist (atheism), IMHO it is legitimate to consider agnosticism on the matter the more scientific state of mind.

Anonymous said...

Professor Moran and Mr. Wilkins, I respectfully offer three points in response to your comments concerning Bertrand Russell on atheism / agnosticism.

1. Concerning the idea of proving or disproving the existence of God. What is the proof that your wife loves you? It’s not measured by her molecules. It’s the unconditional and sacrificial love that she voluntarily, by an exercise of will, bestows on you vs. someone else. Trying to prove God by measuring molecules or quasars is a waste of time. If I asked someone who had been married more than 30 or 40 years to prove that their wife loved them, they wouldn’t waste their time. They know what they experience and that’s all that matters. Proving it to me would have little relevance. It’s simply knowing it that’s important. So it is with God.

2. Regarding Russell’s statement that “Fear is the basis of the whole thing (Religion) …” That is Russell’s own personal view and an underdeveloped juvenile one, I might add. It is certainly not a view held by others for whom the ‘natural’ fears of life are more than offset by indescribable and inescapable joy. As an agnostic / atheist and non-religious person, Russell was as full of fear as anyone could be. Should anyone doubt it, read on:
“That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and beliefs are but the outcome of accidental collection of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius are destined to extinction ... that the whole temple of man's achievement must inevitably be buried - all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built.” From “Why I Am Not A Christian”

3. Concerning Russell’s statement about science and making “this world a fit place to live.” If God does not exist and if, as suggested by more than one atheist, there is no purpose to life – who or what determines the standard of “fit”? As a Christian trying to see through the eyes of evolutionists and atheists, I can only assume “fit” means ‘survival of the ‘fittest.’ Therefore, by “fit”, I guess Russell means that the world will be better if he gets me before I get him. Otherwise (Again, assuming no God), if the world is not presently “fit” for me, for you and for all our ancestors, what (From an atheistic view) will make it “fit”? Science? “Science simply means to “Know.” What would we need to “know?”

Dragon

Anonymous said...

"..only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built.”

Truer words were never spoken. As Christian, you should at least recognize suffering as an essential component of existence. The difference is that what you need to be taught, the atheist/agnostic already knows by instinct.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said:

Professor Moran and Mr. Wilkins

If you insist on using honorifics I think that John would want his doctorate recognised - after all, I don't think he bought it.

1 Concerning the idea of proving or disproving the existence of God. What is the proof that your wife loves you? It’s not measured by her molecules.

Relevance? It's her existence we're (by analogy) talking about, and that is definitely "measured by her molecules".

2...As an agnostic / atheist and non-religious person, Russell was as full of fear as anyone could be...

Not at all. At least Russell knew his enemies were where he could see them; believing in a god entails giving up even that assurance - particularly a god that isn't above the odd spot of genocide when it messes up its experiments. Oddly enough, as an atheist (at least as regards any god described to me) I am as capable as any theist of feeling "indescribable and inescapable joy"; I am as human as you.

3. Concerning Russell’s statement about science and making “this world a fit place to live.” If God does not exist and if, as suggested by more than one atheist, there is no purpose to life – who or what determines the standard of “fit”? As a Christian trying to see through the eyes of evolutionists and atheists, I can only assume “fit” means ‘survival of the ‘fittest.’ Therefore, by “fit”, I guess Russell means that the world will be better if he gets me before I get him.

There's just a teensy bit of equivocation here on the word fit...

I'd suggest you get a new pair of spectacles before "trying to see through the eyes of evolutionists and atheists"; or maybe just remove the beam from your eye first next time?

Oddly enough, man was a social animal long before the first Christian existed. There are very good reasons why societies have functioned, and a morality not dissimilar to the golden rule can arise, without the Christian or indeed any god. Try reading Descent of Man - it's a very good read and lays it all out quite clearly.

Torbjörn Larsson said...

"So someday you hope to be an atheist?"

Exactly, someday I may be a strong atheist of the "gods are impossible" kind. Why not? :-)

Currently I am of the "gods are improbable" kind, like Dawkins.

Jud:

Hello.

In return I will give an oversimplified argument over why strong atheism is a more reasonable empirical position based on current observational knowledge.

But first, in this comment, a little rant as a background. The cliché "it is impossible to prove a negative" is often used in this context. It is not a problem for my position. But it is one of those things that are claimed to define boundaries on empirical methods. AFAIK it is wrong, however.

I can't find a suitable definition or origin for the claim. (Though since there are philosophers on the thread, maybe they will provide one.)

It can either be a philosophical claim that so called universal negative propositions can't be proved. But it is itself a universal negative proposition. So it implies its own unprovability, and it must be wrong in that model.

Or it can be a scientific claim that you can't show the nonexistence of unobserved or unobservable entities. But we do this all the time, we show that what's being negated and something known to be true implies a contradiction.

These so called "no-go" theorem are difficult and have loopholes, but they exist. We know that there is no fourth generation of particles, that we can't make quantum clones, and believe on good grounds that time machines are impossible.

I especially like the Bell tests, that show that classical variables are (at least locally) no good to describe quantum systems. Something unobservable (because we have never seen those) is known to not exist.

Torbjörn Larsson said...

Jud:

So, having established why I am somewhat skeptical to claim of defining bounds for empirical methods without verified models of all of those methods, I will give my view as short as I can make it today:

Philosophical impossibility isn't the question for empiricism. There is always a loophole. For example, the QM no-cloning theorem doesn't provide clones to pop up by quantum fluctuations.

In fact, so called Boltzmann's Brains that thinks they are a universe can pop up. But they are much less probable than the usual process; and designer universes are at most as probable as natural ones. (Ikeda & Jeffery's.)

However, we can model reality. The problem is to test those models (to exclude unreasonable doubt).

For a naive example, by observing a large number of modelable systems with EM et cetera interactions we could see if they are perfectly casual (preserves total energy). That would exclude supernatural interactions, which we can't model except by their breaking causality.

But such meta-models of nature isn't science today, nor is it agreeable for some.

From a naturalist view, you would make (the weak and rather useless) claim that you have excluded the whole class of supernatural phenomena by showing that the most powerful (the uncorrelated) doesn't happen, because the weaker of the class are inconsequential for nature.

From a philosophy view, the weaker or noninterventionist supernatural entity would always remain hidden in the gap, because it is consequential for your philosophy.

For an example that shows the gap between improbable and impossible, I offer a trivial model: P(N|D) < P(N|D&T), P(N) = probability for a Natural universe, D = observational Data, T = natural Theory; when a theory explains a new data set, the possibility for a natural universe increases. We can't put any numbers on it and/or test it - we only know that an unnatural universe will become improbable at some point.

I'm quite sure that if we parse all of this it comes down to Occam's rule at some point, to make the ≤ go through in Ikeda-Jeffery's philosophical argument, and accumulate the improbability of designer universes over the multitude of the multiverse. (Which in the theological version is equivalent to point out that total cosmic cheats are bad theology - gods that fakes all of physics must be bad.)

That is fine by me, because at that point the whole gods business seems rather contrived anyway, philosophically as well as empirically. :-)

Torbjörn Larsson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Torbjörn Larsson said...

"the QM no-cloning theorem doesn't provide clones to pop up" - the QM no-cloning theorem doesn't prevent clones to pop up

"to make the ≤ go through" - to make the < go through

Anonymous said...

I especially like the Bell tests, that show that classical variables are (at least locally) no good to describe quantum systems.

Something unobservable (because we have never seen those) is known to not exist.

It can if it's non-local (Bohm interpretation). Also, the many worlds interpretation allows locality and metaphysical realism (objectivity).

Torbjörn Larsson said...

Jud:

If you read this, now I remember that we are meeting over a long thread at GMBM on evolution. Sorry, I was rather tired when I put in my two cents. (As seen by several other mistakes, as well.)

So, hello indeed!

anonymous:

"It can if it's non-local (Bohm interpretation)."

Sure, I mentioned it, and allowed for non-local effects in designer universes.

I agree that the MWI of QM is weakening the cause for non-natural descriptions just by existing, since most or all of quantum fluctuations will be fully deterministic in that view. Perhaps we can some day test different interpretations - meanwhile the MWI is the most parsimonious model (according to Tegmark, for example).

Speaking of parsimony, I want to rectify my previous comments on this point - I may use the material later.

So, I didn't really wanted to discuss why I prefer to conclude improbability here, just why I can't see how to describe and model empirical and especially scientific methods and their results fully. Nor did I want to discuss multiverses and designer universes as such, because they are besides the point of discussing religious gods.

But if we do discuss improbability, I no longer think parsimony is involved in making the inequality definite instead of semidefinite in I & J model of finetuning in multiverses which is what results in improbability in that case.

The sufficient reason is that designer universes are human inventions, while natural universes are results of extrapolating scientific results. The slight difference in probability is enough accumulated over the infinity of universes in eternal inflation cosmology.

Torbjörn Larsson said...

Frak! This will never converge on a solution. :-)

Another, more fundamental reason for taking designer universes as strictly less probable is because they are a mere subset of the possible created ones. Why make a universe mimicking a natural one exactly? [A lot of handwaving on comparable samples omitted. It may be that we will never be certain hwo to make quantifiable probabilities over multiverses. But I will stick with the ones that look feasible now, and they admit comparable samples.]

Anonymous said...

Torbjörn Larsson said: "Another, more fundamental reason for taking designer universes as strictly less probable is because they are a mere subset of the possible created ones."

A very good point that I will readily concede: Designer universes are less probable because they are necessarily a subset. This still leaves room for plenty of designer universes, though, which is why I would describe myself as agnostic re whether the particular universe we're in was created intentionally by some entity with the ability and intelligence to do so (a naturally arising entity, using natural means), or arose without the intervention of any intelligence.

"Why make a universe mimicking a natural one exactly?"

Ah, have you a selection of verifiably natural universes to compare? ;-)

Gordon Davis said...

hahahaha, alright. I'm glad that you were able to correct one of the greatest philosophers, logicians, mathematicians of all time, as well as possibly the most powerful and eloquent voice for non-belief on his definition of Atheism, he'd really appreciate it I bet.

Agnostic NOT Atheist said...

"However Huxley also considered himself an atheist for the reason that if it was not possible to know whether something existed or not it was a total waste of time, and there was no rational basis for assuming it does."

Can you show us with a quote that Huxley said anything that supports your statement? I have links to almost everything Huxley wrote, I can send you some links to his works, would you like to start looking?

The FACTS are, when Huxley first made his personal philosophy, The Principle of Agnosticism, public, he started off by listing religions and philosophies he wanted no part of. First on the list? Atheism.

Later Huxley was even more specific, and said he was offended by Atheism. As in his opinion Atheism "professes to be guided by reason and science".

Matthew, Huxley is too available for people like you to just make shit up.

Your buddies Larry, PZ and Richard all assume man has the ability to assign some probability to the question - does existence have intention or not? Dawkins says he's 99% sure.

Speaking of Atheist and Theist alike... "The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure that they had attained a certain "gnosis"--had more or less successfully solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble. And, with Hume and Kant on my side, I could not think myself presumptuous in holding fast by that opinion" ~ Thomas Huxley

Larry Moran said...

Later Huxley was even more specific, and said he was offended by Atheism.

Which definition of "atheism" did Huxley use? I doubt that it was the same definition used by most modern atheists.

Agnostic NOT Atheist said...

"The one thing in which most of these good people were agreed was the one thing in which I differed from them. They were quite sure that they had attained a certain "gnosis"--had more or less successfully solved the problem of existence; while I was quite sure I had not, and had a pretty strong conviction that the problem was insoluble. And, with Hume and Kant on my side, I could not think myself presumptuous in holding fast by that opinion"

"On the whole, the "bosh" of heterodoxy [Atheism]is more offensive to me than that of [Theism]orthodoxy, because heterodoxy professes to be guided by reason and science, and orthodoxy does not." ~ Thomas Huxley

Specifically where do you see Larry, PZ and Richard agreeing with Huxley?

Larry Moran said...

PZ, Richard, and I are agnostic atheists. We do not agree with Huxley's definition of "atheist."

By our definition, Huxley is an atheist since he doesn't believe in god(s). None of us are certain that god(s) do not exist although we all agree that the probability is very low.

Did you read the post? Bertrand Russell knew that there were different definitions of "atheist."

Newbie said...

Wasn't it Russell who said that if after his death it turned out that he would have to face God, he said that the first thing he would do is he would reproach God for not giving him enough evidence of His existence? I might be wrong. I'm not very good with names.

Newbie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kerry said...

"An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not."

This is not correct.

Yes it is.

In general philosophy specifically epistemic formation of beliefs, you can have Belief, Disbelief and Agnosticism.


In the higher field of philosophy of religion Atheism is a paired set with a specific Theism.
You can't have agnosticism as an option.

I Philosophy of Religion there is no such thing as thing as a Global Atheism, 1 claim that can cover all god claims.

All Atheism is therefore Local and a direct response to the specific God being put forth by the Theist.

In Philosophy of religion it gets even more precise.
Large G God is used as a shortform for the Abrahamic God.

So Russel was being very clear, he would refute specific god claims and would remain agnostic when the god claims become meaningless.