John Lynch has re-opened a debate about whether Dawkins' opinion on religion is valid [Weinberg on expertise]. The discussion was prompted by PZ's review of Weinberg's review of The God Delusion [I am so happy that Steven Weinberg is on our side].
Here's what John says,
Many of us involved with fighting creationism have argued for years that expertise is important in scientific matters. That's why lawyers like Phil Johnson need to demonstrate their knowledge of evolution before they are taken seriously. Any one can express an opinion, but to be taken seriously on a scientific issue, one must have engaged in serious study of the matter at hand. This, of course, also holds for non-scientific areas of study.The analogy is interesting but I think the logic is facile. Let me try and show why the argument fails in the case of an atheist arguing against religion.
Weinberg is attempting to argue that Dawkins is entitled to voicing his opinion about religious matters, and indeed he is, just as I'm entitled to express my opinion about any matter. Unless Dawkin's has demonstrated his knowledge of the subject at hand, one could argue that his opinion on religion is as valid as Johnson's on evolution or mine on bridge building.
I am an atheist. I have listened to many of the arguments for the existence of God and I am not convinced by any of them. Like Dawkins, I can give you my explanations for why I reject these arguments. They appear very rational to me and I have several decades of experience defending them against all comers. So does Dawkins, he's no spring chicken. (Dawkins is way older than me!)
It seems very disingenuous for religious people to dismiss my atheistic stance on the grounds that I'm not an expert on religion. They rarely criticize believers for being non-experts in religion so, in addition to being disingenuous, it's also hypocritical.
How much religion do I have to study before my rejection of it becomes credible? Is five years in a Buddhist monastery enough to prepare me to reject Buddhism? Is that what the average Christian has done before deciding that Buddhism just isn't for them?
Do I have to become a Jesuit priest before I can reject Roman Catholicism? Is that what John Lynch has done, or is his religious position not valid?
There are even more extreme reductio ad absurdum's. Do we not have a valid opinion about astrology until we've become experts at casting horoscopes? How about my rejection of fascism? I'm not an expert—I haven't read all of the works of the leading fascists—does that mean my opinion isn't valid?
Finally I'd like to ask John what he thinks of the Pope, or Billy Graham, or Ted Haggard, or even Francis Collins. All of them reject atheism. Are they expects on atheism? Is their opinion valid? Do you criticize them for offering just an opinion?
This issue isn't as simple as John makes out. Even if we concede that Dawkins isn't an expert on all religions that's no reason to discredit his defense of atheism. It's not the same as Johnson's ignorance about evolution because evolution isn't about opinions and superstitions. Religion is. It's more like astrology.
The onus is on believers to convince us non-believers to adopt their faith. I'm not convinced, and I think my opinion about the existence of God is just as valid as that of C.S. Lewis, Ted Haggard, or Francis Collins. Instead of whining about whether Dawkins has mastered the subtlety of the Eucharist or the relationship of the Prophet Muhammad to God, why not concentrate on showing where Dawkins went wrong in his rejection of the arguments for the existence of God?
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Finally I'd like to ask John what he thinks of the Pope, or Billy Graham, or Ted Haggard, or even Francis Collins. All of them reject atheism. Are they experts on atheism?
Collins claims to have been an "obnoxious atheist" while in college. The conversion story is standard evangelical boiler plate though, so pardon me for not taking his word for it, or even caring.
What? You don't believe that the sight of a frozen waterfall made him believe in Jesus? Boy, are you ever a cynic! :-)
Let's explore the options:
1) I don't believe him, and therefore conclude that he is "making stuff up" to sell something, and therefore disregard him.
2) I believe him, and therefore conclude that he is "rationally challenged", and therefore disregard him.
Do I need a third option, or does that cover it?
So...
I can't have an opinion on the quality of, say, the Ford Focus unless I can build one?
Any religion requires faith, indeed blind faith not knowledge. IMO the vast majority of believers does not have real knowledge about their religion. Thus, it is absolutely unfair to demand expertise from non-believers if they criticize religion.
I think anyone can have an opinion about religion,meaning a belief in a supernatural God as opposed to Buddhism which is a way of life or a philosophy not a religion. We can know nothing about this God, so any opinion is meaningless.
I was raised Catholic, Dante is my all-time favorite writer, yadda yadda. Lynch is an idiot to assume that there aren't plenty of us who have rejected Christianity in spite (because?) of having a considerable knowledge of it. Not, of course, that that actually means anything since, to use PZ's analogy, one certainly needn't be able to cast a horoscope in order to realize that astrology is bullshit.
Steve LaBonne,
You are correct. Rejection of Christianity is not related to how much knowledge one has or doesn't have of its doctrines. Rejection of Christianity is, in fact, "natural." Larry Moran, an atheist, rejects Christianity not because he knows nothing about it (although perhaps he doesn't know anything about it), and not because he knows a lot about it and has cleverly seen through the myth (probably what he suspects) but rather because he hasn't been regenerated by God. You won't accept Christianity unless you are given a new heart—and that gift is not based on a theology exam. Atheism is man's natural condition, and he can't escape it without divine intervention.
Martin,
You have demonstrated, at least as far as Christianity goes, the usual misconception that faith means belief. Christianity requires faith (which is in fact given to believers)—but faith is closer in meaning to "trust" than to believe. Faith, to Christians, does not mean to believe, but to live as though what you believe is not just true, but also good. And Christianity never, ever, requires "blind faith." As to believers not having knowledge about their religion—if that's a challenge, I accept.
"How much religion do I have to study before my rejection of it becomes credible? Is five years in a Buddhist monastery enough to prepare me to reject Buddhism? Is that what the average Christian has done before deciding that Buddhism just isn't for them?
"Do I have to become a Jesuit priest before I can reject Roman Catholicism?"
How many books on fallacies do I have to read before recognizing a strawman?
Steve LaBonne: "Lynch is an idiot to assume that there aren't plenty of us who have rejected Christianity in spite (because?) of having a considerable knowledge of it."
Another strawman. Lynch didn't say what you claimed that he said.
David writes:
Larry Moran, an atheist, rejects Christianity....but rather because he hasn't been regenerated by God. You won't accept Christianity unless you are given a new heart—and that gift is not based on a theology exam.
Um, so just why is God apparently being so stingy towards Larry by not giving him this gift? (I hope Larry doesn't mind me inquiring on his behalf ;-) ). Or take my case: a fundamentalist Christian from age 15 through 26 -- prayed regularly, studied the Bible, witnessed to unsuspecting folks, the whole nine yards. Now I'm an atheist. Did God take his gift back or something?
Steve Watson,
The bible is quite clear that God will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy and compassion upon whom he will have compassion.
As for your case, the bible is equally clear that there are those who leave who never were of us.
Dave replies to me:
The bible is quite clear that God will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy and compassion upon whom he will have compassion.
Well, that was one of the possible responses I was expecting. Classic Calvinism: God arbitrarily chooses some (a few, in the usual account) to be nice to, and equally arbitrarily chooses others (the majority) to torment for all enternity. Just to get his jollies, as it were. In plain English, unobfuscated by apologetic spin, God is a cosmic sadist who makes Saddam Hussein and Adolf Hitler look like angels of mercy.
And you, David, worship and love this monstrosity -- this abusive parent writ large.
As for your case, the bible is equally clear that there are those who leave who never were of us.
You're right, David: I was never like you. Even in my fundy days I couldn't quite warp my mind to that level sociopathy. A good thing, too -- I don't think I could bear the shame of admitting to having believed something that purely evil. My God, while suffering from a number of epistemological problems, was at least a nicer, more just fellow than yours.
Steve Watson,
Classic Calvinism: God arbitrarily chooses some (a few, in the usual account) to be nice to, and equally arbitrarily chooses others (the majority) to torment for all enternity.
Sorry, what you describe is not classic Calvinism. The bible reads, Jacob I loved and Esau I hated, not Jacob I chose "arbitrarily." And Calvinism is often aligned with postmillennialism, which anticipates a hugely, not a sparsely, populated heaven.
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