In Ontario we have to conform to the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act (FIPPA). What this means is that we cannot publish student names and grades. The University of Toronto guidelines are very clear on this matter [Q and A for Instructors under FIPPA]. We shouldn't even be publishing student numbers with grades.I just checked with one of my colleagues to find out what the policy was when she graduated in 1949. She showed me the booklet put out by the university in 1949. Her name and grades were listed there. Furthermore, the names and rankings of all student were published in the newspaper.
I asked one of my students who attended high school in Europe. Her name and grades were published in the newspaper. I'm told that this practice continues in some European countries. Another of my colleague learned his medical school grades by reading the Glasgow newspaper in the early 1950s.
Assuming that FIPPA does not apply to the publication of university grades (an invalid assumption), should we publish student names and grades? What are the non-legal arguments for and against this policy?
I like the idea of publishing student's names and grades because it helps make them take responsibility for their activities at university. Very few people agree with me. They all think that a student has a right to privacy. Most of these people don't have a problem with publishing Professor's salaries and course evaluation results because the public has a right to know this information.
[Photo Description: This is a photograph of the wall on the ground floor of my building. You can see the names and photographs of every student in the medical school graduating class.]
You can publish my name and grades when you stop charging me $10-15 for an official transcript.
ReplyDeleteConsidering how much tuition costs, I think it should be private; unless the student gives consent. Some countries in Europe pay for your tuition, so I could see how they could do that.
ReplyDelete"it helps make them take responsibility for their activities"
ReplyDeleteFirst, do you have evidence that this is so? Second, why must they take responsibility?
I can't see how a student's grade is 'public' knowledge. A student isn't accountable to the public. Professors are since they are publicly funded.
I think your point of view is along the line of 'shaming' students into 'flying right'. Frankly, I'd rather know my doctor worked hard for their marks because they really wanted to learn not because they were afraid to be embarrassed. I'd be more impressed if a doctor posted a letter of recommendation from their professor than their marks.
humanistdad, I'm a recent graduate who is all for doing everything possible to make students learn what they need to, and if it takes a public shaming in the form of their grades being published then I'm all for it. And personally, I don't care how my doctor/engineer/burger flipper/etc. learned the material as long as s/he does because THAT is what is most important.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of publishing student's names and grades because it helps make them take responsibility for their activities at university
ReplyDeleteHow uncharacteristically paternalistic of you!
If school is a state-driven activity and good grades are in the national interest, then sure, publish away. If school is an individual pursuit then grades should no more be published than medical records (let's publish a list of STDs to encourage safe sex).
University schooling is partially funded by the government and increasingly funded by individuals so I think that individuals should choose to publish their grades or not. If they want to pay their money and fail, that's their choice as adults. I don't see why it's anyone else's business unless the student chooses to reveal the information (for job applications, for example).
While I probably have a long opinion on this, I'm not going to indulge right now because I have a ton of work. However, I will point out that public publishing and ranking of grades happens at all levels of education in Korea, on a school, provincial, and national level. Also, Korea has an inordinate level of student suicides, and from what Korean people tell me, is causally because of these rankings.
ReplyDeleteI'd like grades to be published so I could show off my skills.
ReplyDeleteI don't really see any other benefits though.
(BTW I really don't like it when people start making up rights for things they think they should have.)
Seeing as I appear to be a lifetime student and am currently an adjunct instructor and a HS teacher, My opinion is more towards the middle.
ReplyDeleteShould we publish...no...should we hold under lock and key...no.
Its a grade, not a social security number or your home address. Just my opinion.
My grandfather is in one of those hallway pictures (class of 1930). But I see a difference between recognizing accomplishments such as graduation, notably high marks etc as opposed to making all results available, including failing grades, withdrawals, incompletes etc. Most of the students are teenagers who are having their first encounter with an education system that is requiring them to take responsibility for their own learning, not to mention trying to figure out what they want to do with their lives. For teenagers in university, I think that failure *should be* an option. Except for the privileged few who seem to excel at everything they put their minds and or hands to, the only way to be sure not to fail is to never take risks, and never venture outside the comfort zone.
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ReplyDeleteI come from Eastern Europe and one of the first things I found very strange when I came to North America was that nobody is talking about their grades and not only that, they are not published anywhere. I find it perfectly normal to find all exam and class grades posted on the professor's door or on a wall in the hallway. And I think the opposite practice is totally counterproductive. Shame can be a very good educational tool, and it is always good to know where you stand relative to others.
ReplyDeleteI actually don't know whether my university grade was published (University of London). I rather assumed it would be somewhere, but I really don't know. It just wasn't an issue.
ReplyDeleteBut now that you ask, yes, I think results should be published. If a course is 100% privately funded I can go along with the idea of results being private, but if the education has any public funding at all, then I think the final results achieved should also be public.
I can perhaps go along with Theo to the extent that students who fail to achieve their diploma should perhaps just be noted as "no diploma". It doesn't seem necessary to publicly distinguish between those students who just failed and and those who screwed up completely. But the suggestion that students somehow need to be protected from any form of public embarassment is ridiculous. Once you're old enough to drive a car, buy alcohol or vote, you're damn well old enough to have to put your name to your results in public.
Shame can be a very good educational tool, and it is always good to know where you stand relative to others.
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Students know where they stand. Professors usually make available all the pertinent statistics if not the grade distributions out right. As long as you leave no marks identifying a particular student, you are fine. Students who do poorly still feel ashamed. The undergraduates I have been around do not need more incentive to be focussed on getting grades. They fight for every single point. Their incentive is to get into the best medical school, graduate school, law school, etc.
If a course is 100% privately funded I can go along with the idea of results being private, but if the education has any public funding at all, then I think the final results achieved should also be public.
ReplyDeleteWhy? Medical treatment is 100% publicly funded and I don't know anyone that thinks medical results should be public.
I think the question boils down to whether the students are independent adults responsible for their own success or failure or whether the state (through the University) needs to act like a parent and make decisions "for their own good".
If you think the state should act like a father-figure and do things for the student's "own good", then why aren't we asking what we hope to achieve and whether there aren't better ways of doing it?
Shame can be a very good educational tool
ReplyDeletePerhaps it can, under the best of circumstances, but I think that having such high stakes might be more likely to discourage co-operation and risk-taking, and promote cut-throat competition and possibly even cheating.
and it is always good to know where you stand relative to others.
Students can be provided with their class rank without the requirement to have marks made public.
I find it interesting that based on my work experience (29 years in the hi-tech industry), employee rankings are a closely guarded secrete, kept between an employee and his/her manager
Students can be provided with their class rank without the requirement to have marks made public.
ReplyDeleteThis is true, but it gives you a lot less information than knowing how well others did individually
I was at the dinner last Saturday when this came up. Amanda asked where the evidence is and I don't think we got a specific answer. Perhaps there is some but the statement "taking responsibility" is pretty fuzzy and unfalsifiable.
ReplyDeleteThis is true, but [class ranking] gives you a lot less information than knowing how well others did individually.
ReplyDeleteAgreed that knowing everyone's marks* is more information, but I have yet to be convinced that it is necessarily useful information.
* Does one call them grades in Canada too, these days?
hyfen asks,
ReplyDeleteI was at the dinner last Saturday when this came up. Amanda asked where the evidence is and I don't think we got a specific answer. Perhaps there is some but the statement "taking responsibility" is pretty fuzzy and unfalsifiable.
I find it difficult to explain why I think it's a good idea to have a more open system where student names are published. That's exactly why I blogged about it.
I don't like secrecy and I don't like hiding behind anonymity. I think universities should be very open places where everyone isn't afraid to speak out and take responsibility for their words and actions. The secrecy associated with the current grading system doesn't fit in with my view of what a university should be.
We switched from a public system to a system where students' names aren't ever made public. The arguments in favor of this switch weren't convincing to me. I do understand that the advocates of change have to make the case and it's people like me who are now advocating change.
I don't like secrecy and I don't like hiding behind anonymity.
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't like everyone knowing everything about me. I don't see how your sentiment is any better than mine. The other arguments for publically posting grades are "lets humiliate the students into doing better", which is pretty insulting and in my experience doesn hold up.
In my opinion, unless you can provide a good argument for making information about a person available there is no reson it should be. I don't see how my grades are important to anyone but me and the few people who need them to judge my knowledge and/or skills. Both groups can relatively easily get my marks.
I don't like secrecy and I don't like hiding behind anonymity. I think universities should be very open places where everyone isn't afraid to speak out and take responsibility for their words and actions.
ReplyDeleteWho isn't taking responsibility? The students pay their tuition, they put in years of their life and they either succeed or not. Respecting their privacy does not absolve them of responsibility!
Indeed, publishing their grades in order to use shame to change their behaviour is an overt attempt to subvert their responsibility. Instead of letting them succeed or fail on their own, to make their own decisions, you are trying to pressure them into doing what you think is right.
I say let them take responsibility for themselves, and that includes taking the responsibility for deciding the value of study and play. If that means that some students flunk out then so be it - that was a result of their choices and they must live with it. It is their responsibility, not yours.
In general, this paternalistic "shame people into obedience" model can be applied to anything, from publishing library records to medical records. Why shouldn't people take "responsibility" for getting STDs or for reading "The Secret"? Why shouldn't we give up all of our privacy so that we all take "responsibility" for our actions?
The University is a place of openness amongst researchers, and they voluntarily choose to publish their work. Students are there to learn and they aren't there to publish. If they chose to do so, then they will have to stand by that but why shouldn't it be their decision like it is in all other spheres?
We could also post the scores faculty got on their grants, to shame the ones that aren't getting funded to write better grants.
ReplyDeleteWe could also post the scores faculty got on their grants, to shame the ones that aren't getting funded to write better grants.
ReplyDeleteThis is actually a very good idea, seriously
^^They publish government-funded scientists' salaries too.
ReplyDeletetyro says,
ReplyDeleteIn general, this paternalistic "shame people into obedience" model can be applied to anything, from publishing library records to medical records.
For the record, I'm not in favor of publishing student grades in order to "shame" them.
I assume you're referring to someone else.
lost marbles says,
ReplyDeleteI don't see how your sentiment is any better than mine.
Me neither.
That's the point.
I assume you're referring to someone else.
ReplyDeleteI assume he is referring to me since I said that shame can be a very good educational tool. And I stick to that position. If you know that your F will be posted for everybody to see, you will be a lot more likely to put the necessary effort not to get an F than if you are the only one who will know about it. I think that's obvious
I assume he is referring to me since I said that shame can be a very good educational tool. And I stick to that position. If you know that your F will be posted for everybody to see, you will be a lot more likely to put the necessary effort not to get an F than if you are the only one who will know about it. I think that's obvious
ReplyDeleteNot really. As someone on my blog mentioned there are situations where the posting of marks may lead to actively try to do worse. Or it can do absolutely nothing.
Sure it might have worked in your situation, but your situation is not universal.
If you know that your F will be posted for everybody to see, you will be a lot more likely to put the necessary effort not to get an F than if you are the only one who will know about it. I think that's obvious.
ReplyDeleteI do not think that is so obvious. Do the students go to university to learn, or to get adulation from their peers? Surely getting an F is enough punishment by itself without adding public humiliation?
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ReplyDeleteI do not think that is so obvious. Do the students go to university to learn, or to get adulation from their peers
ReplyDeleteThat's a noble but very naive way of looking at things. Most students go to university to get a degree from it so that they can get a good job after that. That's a very different motivation from doing it because you want to learn (there are plenty of such people but they are not the majority). The fact that the way students get their degree remains invisible for everybody else definitely helps boost the trend.
Just to add: the argument that students already know where they stand from the distribution of grades which is available breaks down because it only applies to the particular class they are taking.
ReplyDeleteIf all grades are made public, a student can find where he or she stands overall, and that's very useful and important information that is not available now. And no, the GPA distribution does not fill this gap.
I asked:
ReplyDeleteDo the students go to university to learn, or to get adulation from their peers?
Georgi replied
That's a noble but very naive way of looking at things. Most students go to university to get a degree from it so that they can get a good job after that.
I was not suggesting that the majority of students attend university on the basis of learning just for the sake of learning. Of course, most of them are there to get their degrees and the ensuing jobs. But I hope it is not naive to think that the students' intention is to earn their degrees by learning the material so that they can go out and be good engineers and teachers and doctors and lawyers and accountants etc. And I very much hope that my doctors, lawyers, and engineers, teachers and accountants are the sort of people whose primary motivations are what other people think of them (those people can go be fashion models and used-car salespersons).