Being a wise old fuddy-duddy I’m sure you understand Larry that few, if anyone, approaches this issue in the cold light of logic – if indeed such is possible, as logic probably occupies a domain with well defined boundaries; real life, on the other hand, particularly conceptual life, does not!
Not only are conceptual objects highly complex and inhabit a space with an indefinite number of dimensions, those objects are also very much bound up with the emotional and social life of people – their aspirations, wish fulfillment, peer group loyalties and that ubiquitous factor in human affairs: status!
I suspect that these human factors mean that identification & loyalty’ rather than cool reason comes first. Even so the open-ended complexity of the conceptual objects alluded to in your Bingo card contain enough latent shape shifting multidimensional flexibility (bit like complex adaptive systems – memes and all that!) to see them through some pretty hostile conceptual environments. In fact the atheist/theist debate is so open ended that the bingo card will vary for person to person. E.g. as a theist (who favors evolution) the only squares on my card common to the one shown is possibly the ‘SETI’ square and the ‘joker’.
You may be vastly underestimating the human/complexity wild cards here. The atheist vs. theist debate isn’t a fixed dimensional game like chess with unequivocally demonstrably correct outcomes. Best to think of it more akin to a football game which is a heady mix of science, expertise, emotion, loyalty, aspiration, identification, ill-temper, goals scored, goals lost, and a baying crowd.
The point of the Bingo card is to mock the arguments used by creationists to attack evolution and promote theism. I believe that most of those arguments are demonstrably incorrect, in spite of what you might claim.
That does not mean there is no God. What it means is that creationists—at least the ones who are most vocal—seem to be remarkably deficient when it comes to logic.
As a scientist and an evolutionist, I spend a great deal of time criticizing my fellow evolutionists when they promote false ideas about evolution. I'm puzzled by the fact that most theists seem to be remarkably tolerant of illogical creationist arguments but remarkably intolerant of atheist arguments.
... as a theist (who favors evolution) the only squares on my card common to the one shown is possibly the ‘SETI’ square and the ‘joker’.
Do you think "Darwinsism" is a faith just like religion? Do you think the Cambrian explosion is evidence of God? Do you think microevouton is a fact but not macroevolution? Do you think Darwinism is responsible for Nazis?
I doubt that you believe any of those things. That's the point of the game. It's making fun of stupid arguments. On this particular issue you should be on the side of rationalism and enjoy the game.
OK! OK! Satire and mocking are allowed by the rules of the game – I use them myself, especially of religious self-aggrandizing ‘authorities’ that are not merely content to flaunt their stupidity with the utmost arrogance, but then make up for the deficiencies in their arguments with spiritually intimidating accusations of moral bankruptcy and blasphemy. And I come in line for this kind of treatment as well: If it wasn’t for the fact that I’m not the ‘Darwin award’ winning type, in times past I would have been a faggot on a bonfire! Yes, I would certainly go along with lots of your criticisms of the creationists and yes I don’t believe the things you question me about.
But let me just say this; on my atheistic bingo card I have a square I call the ‘doubt’ square and it says ‘skepticism’. But funny thing is, if I then look at my theistic card it has the self same square! In short the two cards share the ‘doubt square’ and are thereby mutually skeptical of one another’s contents. But why do the cards share the doubt square? What’s the common factor?
What this common square acknowledges is that the common factor in all argumentation is the human aptitude to follow, interpret or construct an argument – and there’s the rub - arguments reside in minds and one’s own mind is always the weak link. Infirmity of mind is quite capable of either scuppering the effective understanding of watertight arguments (if such exist) or of presenting botched arguments and cognitive lash ups. Hence I tend to approach the subject with a certain fear and trembling and whether I was an atheist or theist my thoughts would be punctured with echoes of ‘I might’ve got it wrong!’ So I’ve got two cards and I’m playing both but I have to admit that for me the theist card seems to be winning. Whether that’s down to irrational faith and superstitious dread is for you decide! As the saying goes “Self praise is no recommendation”.
Its a valid point! In this day and age every can be taken as a religion as religion is only a belief in something and not strictly an all seeing entity or some greater force! Religion is a variable in life and will never be proven and never stay the same!
There are rumours that bingo is being banned in the US, is that true? In the UK, bingo has suffered in recent months due to the ban on smoking in public places, causing smoking customers to either go outside for a cig and face the harsh cold (not a good move for the aged) or stay at home and not play, thus reducing the Bingo Gossip. But banning bingo completely is ridiculous! It is a very mind form of gambling at the most! If you’re going to ban bingo then the lottery has to go too surely? Isn’t that gambling? Bingo is a number game, based on pure luck, so really it’s not even similar to other gambling games such as poker and sports betting. It’s just like buying a lottery ticket just you have to get more numbers! So then why is it such a problem? Its just takes away the older generations entertainment while the younger generations indulge in perfectly “legal” things like DRUGS! Can they not see which the bigger problem is?
A creationists bingo card. I know creation is hard to accept for some scientists but at the end of the day you cant disprove it. so it is possible. I dont beleive any religion on earth has the right anwser but I feel there could be something more than evolution to explain existence
Late to the thread, but oh, Bingonews, you don't get it. The arguments on the bingo card are all false. Demonstrably so. Using these arguments is called "lying for Jesus" - either that or you have been conned into believing nonsense.
The thing about science is that it revolves around evidence. Who cares whether or not you can prove that pink unicorns don't exist?
Do you believe in Zeus? Why not? Apply that argument to Thor. Does argument still apply?
Being a wise old fuddy-duddy I’m sure you understand Larry that few, if anyone, approaches this issue in the cold light of logic – if indeed such is possible, as logic probably occupies a domain with well defined boundaries; real life, on the other hand, particularly conceptual life, does not!
ReplyDeleteNot only are conceptual objects highly complex and inhabit a space with an indefinite number of dimensions, those objects are also very much bound up with the emotional and social life of people – their aspirations, wish fulfillment, peer group loyalties and that ubiquitous factor in human affairs: status!
I suspect that these human factors mean that identification & loyalty’ rather than cool reason comes first. Even so the open-ended complexity of the conceptual objects alluded to in your Bingo card contain enough latent shape shifting multidimensional flexibility (bit like complex adaptive systems – memes and all that!) to see them through some pretty hostile conceptual environments. In fact the atheist/theist debate is so open ended that the bingo card will vary for person to person. E.g. as a theist (who favors evolution) the only squares on my card common to the one shown is possibly the ‘SETI’ square and the ‘joker’.
You may be vastly underestimating the human/complexity wild cards here. The atheist vs. theist debate isn’t a fixed dimensional game like chess with unequivocally demonstrably correct outcomes. Best to think of it more akin to a football game which is a heady mix of science, expertise, emotion, loyalty, aspiration, identification, ill-temper, goals scored, goals lost, and a baying crowd.
I appreciate the complexity of the issue.
ReplyDeleteThe point of the Bingo card is to mock the arguments used by creationists to attack evolution and promote theism. I believe that most of those arguments are demonstrably incorrect, in spite of what you might claim.
That does not mean there is no God. What it means is that creationists—at least the ones who are most vocal—seem to be remarkably deficient when it comes to logic.
As a scientist and an evolutionist, I spend a great deal of time criticizing my fellow evolutionists when they promote false ideas about evolution. I'm puzzled by the fact that most theists seem to be remarkably tolerant of illogical creationist arguments but remarkably intolerant of atheist arguments.
... as a theist (who favors evolution) the only squares on my card common to the one shown is possibly the ‘SETI’ square and the ‘joker’.
Do you think "Darwinsism" is a faith just like religion? Do you think the Cambrian explosion is evidence of God? Do you think microevouton is a fact but not macroevolution? Do you think Darwinism is responsible for Nazis?
I doubt that you believe any of those things. That's the point of the game. It's making fun of stupid arguments. On this particular issue you should be on the side of rationalism and enjoy the game.
Thanks for the reply.
ReplyDeleteOK! OK! Satire and mocking are allowed by the rules of the game – I use them myself, especially of religious self-aggrandizing ‘authorities’ that are not merely content to flaunt their stupidity with the utmost arrogance, but then make up for the deficiencies in their arguments with spiritually intimidating accusations of moral bankruptcy and blasphemy. And I come in line for this kind of treatment as well: If it wasn’t for the fact that I’m not the ‘Darwin award’ winning type, in times past I would have been a faggot on a bonfire! Yes, I would certainly go along with lots of your criticisms of the creationists and yes I don’t believe the things you question me about.
But let me just say this; on my atheistic bingo card I have a square I call the ‘doubt’ square and it says ‘skepticism’. But funny thing is, if I then look at my theistic card it has the self same square! In short the two cards share the ‘doubt square’ and are thereby mutually skeptical of one another’s contents. But why do the cards share the doubt square? What’s the common factor?
What this common square acknowledges is that the common factor in all argumentation is the human aptitude to follow, interpret or construct an argument – and there’s the rub - arguments reside in minds and one’s own mind is always the weak link. Infirmity of mind is quite capable of either scuppering the effective understanding of watertight arguments (if such exist) or of presenting botched arguments and cognitive lash ups. Hence I tend to approach the subject with a certain fear and trembling and whether I was an atheist or theist my thoughts would be punctured with echoes of ‘I might’ve got it wrong!’ So I’ve got two cards and I’m playing both but I have to admit that for me the theist card seems to be winning. Whether that’s down to irrational faith and superstitious dread is for you decide! As the saying goes “Self praise is no recommendation”.
Its a valid point! In this day and age every can be taken as a religion as religion is only a belief in something and not strictly an all seeing entity or some greater force! Religion is a variable in life and will never be proven and never stay the same!
ReplyDeleteThere are rumours that bingo is being banned in the US, is that true?
ReplyDeleteIn the UK, bingo has suffered in recent months due to the ban on smoking in public places, causing smoking customers to either go outside for a cig and face the harsh cold (not a good move for the aged) or stay at home and not play, thus reducing the Bingo Gossip. But banning bingo completely is ridiculous! It is a very mind form of gambling at the most! If you’re going to ban bingo then the lottery has to go too surely? Isn’t that gambling?
Bingo is a number game, based on pure luck, so really it’s not even similar to other gambling games such as poker and sports betting. It’s just like buying a lottery ticket just you have to get more numbers! So then why is it such a problem? Its just takes away the older generations entertainment while the younger generations indulge in perfectly “legal” things like DRUGS! Can they not see which the bigger problem is?
A creationists bingo card. I know creation is hard to accept for some scientists but at the end of the day you cant disprove it. so it is possible. I dont beleive any religion on earth has the right anwser but I feel there could be something more than evolution to explain existence
ReplyDeleteLate to the thread, but oh, Bingonews, you don't get it. The arguments on the bingo card are all false. Demonstrably so. Using these arguments is called "lying for Jesus" - either that or you have been conned into believing nonsense.
ReplyDeleteThe thing about science is that it revolves around evidence. Who cares whether or not you can prove that pink unicorns don't exist?
Do you believe in Zeus? Why not? Apply that argument to Thor. Does argument still apply?
Now apply that argument to Yahweh....