tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post8553066440643253514..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Somatic cell mutation rate in humansLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger78125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-60397081203175726512017-04-21T07:05:33.348-04:002017-04-21T07:05:33.348-04:00I just noticed this article and thought that some ...I just noticed this article and thought that some of you might be interested in reading it:<br /><br />http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160601-is-cancer-inevitable?ocid=fbertThe whole truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219999357041824471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-10378888310194404772017-04-19T10:30:24.417-04:002017-04-19T10:30:24.417-04:00This article explains why that one study has not l...<i>This article explains why that one study has not led all doctors to scream from the highest mountaintops that everyone should take Vitamin D supplements....</i><br /><br />Whatcha wanna bet if Bill quotes from that article, which part of the article it comes from? :-)judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-54346782136229923972017-04-19T10:24:15.647-04:002017-04-19T10:24:15.647-04:00Isn't it funny how a couple articles is all it...<i>Isn't it funny how a couple articles is all it takes to convince Bill of something he already wants to believe, but you could show him a thousand articles supporting evolution and he'll still deny it.</i><br /><br />In fact I think it is an example of precisely the same thing as the vitamin D business. Bill's got something he wants to believe (ID or vitamin D prevents most cancers), and no amount of actual scientific evidence will shake his faith. At least the ID folks aren't getting money out of him like the vitamin folks and doctors recommending it are - right Bill, the Disco Institute hasn't got you sending money to them?judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-69992056862685795502017-04-19T10:19:58.633-04:002017-04-19T10:19:58.633-04:00Tx, we'll take that as a "Ditto." :...Tx, we'll take that as a "Ditto." :-)judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-41564775061253497002017-04-19T00:02:17.775-04:002017-04-19T00:02:17.775-04:00"..but you could show him a thousand articles..."..but you could show him a thousand articles supporting evolution and he'll still deny it."<br /><br />Well, I don't know how Bill would respond to that, but the problem for me is that you can't produce any articles or papers, or offer any empirical evidence to support the notion that accidents ever produced a gene, or ribosome, or replication enzymes. All you have is unwarranted faith and a house of religious cards. txpiperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03645156881353741058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-69794862945838667092017-04-18T20:36:38.891-04:002017-04-18T20:36:38.891-04:00This article explains why that one study has not l...This article explains why that one study has not led all doctors to scream from the highest mountaintops that everyone should take Vitamin D supplements: <br /><br /><a href="http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/861810#vp_1" rel="nofollow">http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/861810#vp_1</a><br /><br />Isn't it funny how a couple articles is all it takes to convince Bill of something he already wants to believe, but you could show him a thousand articles supporting evolution and he'll still deny it.Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-30432779962515334162017-04-18T20:05:06.022-04:002017-04-18T20:05:06.022-04:00JM
"Your idiocy is your affair. I hope not to...JM<br />"Your idiocy is your affair. I hope not too many family members will be dragged into it."<br /><br />So you are claiming this papers claims are false?<br /><br />Serum 25-Hydroxyvitamin D Concentrations ≥40 ng/ml Are Associated with >65% Lower Cancer Risk: Pooled Analysis of Randomized Trial and Prospective Cohort Study<br />Sharon L. McDonnell , Carole Baggerly, Christine B. French, Leo L. Baggerly, Cedric F. Garland, Edward D. Gorham, Joan M. Lappe, Robert P. Heaney<br />Published: April 6, 2016http://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0152441<br /><br /><br />Bill Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06642212549806694659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-21966134290391797252017-04-18T14:26:00.348-04:002017-04-18T14:26:00.348-04:00Maintaining 60 ng/ml will help prevent most cancer...<i>Maintaining 60 ng/ml will help prevent most cancers.</i><br /><br />Your idiocy is your affair. I hope not too many family members will be dragged into it.judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-8994171562524604752017-04-18T12:23:57.110-04:002017-04-18T12:23:57.110-04:00LS
"OTOH, as a male, I don't have a parti...LS<br />"OTOH, as a male, I don't have a particularly high risk of breast cancer, do I?" <br /><br />Maintaining 60 ng/ml will help prevent most cancers. The mechanism is the same in most cell types. Vitamin d down regulates cell division and also down regulates blood vessel construction in the cell (metastasis). If you have certain mutations in genes like braca and p53 you are more vulnerable because the repair and cell death functions that prevent un wanted cell division are impaired. If you have mutations in genes like APC (part of the beta catenin destruction mechanism) then you are vulnerable because they may impair the destruction of beta catenin and vitamin d can no longer down regulate cell division. If you look at the 2016 paper I cited you will see that it covers many cancer types.Bill Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06642212549806694659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-37630195793124580432017-04-18T11:36:29.825-04:002017-04-18T11:36:29.825-04:00Yes, in the rare instance when men do develop brea...Yes, in the rare instance when men do develop breast ca, the prognosis is usually not very good. I'm glad your friend did well!<br />Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-14852186854860786322017-04-18T07:06:30.871-04:002017-04-18T07:06:30.871-04:00I do have a male friend who had it and fortunately...I do have a male friend who had it and fortunately survived, though that was not a certainty during the course of the disease.<br /><br />All hail the designer who gave men nipples in which to get cancer!judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-89214434494151377572017-04-17T19:50:43.975-04:002017-04-17T19:50:43.975-04:00OTOH, as a male, I don't have a particularly ...OTOH, as a male, I don't have a particularly high risk of breast cancer, do I? Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-11833842719851456362017-04-17T17:00:36.752-04:002017-04-17T17:00:36.752-04:00LS
What do you think are normal levels? If you ...LS<br /><br /><br />What do you think are normal levels? If you have 60ng/ml in your blood you are fine for not but what is the measurement in the dead on winter? I simply suggest you monitor your level and supplement or increase sun exposure when needed. You are somewhat vulnerable because you live so far north of the equator. <br /><br />"Still doesn't support your claim, though, does it? Why should people with normal Vit D levels expose themselves to sunlight in attempt to reduce their risk of cancer?"Bill Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06642212549806694659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-14844636339262088802017-04-17T14:39:41.993-04:002017-04-17T14:39:41.993-04:00Here, the words giving him trouble include "m...<i>Here, the words giving him trouble include "many", "data" and "usually".</i><br /><br />There is also "inconclusive," though to be fair it is four syllables.judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-38936648431928900802017-04-17T13:18:21.851-04:002017-04-17T13:18:21.851-04:00Larry
"Ed Yong is an excellent science writer...<i>Larry<br />"Ed Yong is an excellent science writer. I don't know why he is so opposed to the idea that many cancers are just due to bad luck. Why does that idea upset so many people?"<br /><br />The data supports more than luck is usually involved.</i><br /><br />And. yet again, Bill demonstrates that he doesn't understand words. Here, the words giving him trouble include "many", "data" and "usually". A dictionary might help, except those also tend be filled with words. <br /><br /><i>In one hospital-based case–control study, women with serum concentrations above 60 ng/mL had an 83% reduction in breast cancer risk, compared with women with concentrations below 20 ng/mL (P < .001)</i><br /><br />Still doesn't support your claim, though, does it? Why should people with normal Vit D levels expose themselves to sunlight in attempt to reduce their risk of cancer?Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-80366892019235078502017-04-17T13:17:36.468-04:002017-04-17T13:17:36.468-04:00Larry wrote:
"Do they want to drop into thei...Larry wrote:<br /><br />"Do they want to drop into their local children's hospital and tell all the cancer patients that they could have avoided having cancer if they had been more careful? It's their fault (or their parents fault) that they have cancer?"<br /><br />Although this isn't particular to childhood cancer, some parents are rethinking having children if one of the parents carries the BRCA2 allele associated with higher breast cancer. Genetic screening for known oncogene alleles could fall under the banner of "you could have prevented your child from having cancer".<br /><br />This also brings into question the morality of genetic screening of embryos created through in vitro fertilization, or even editing known oncogenes using CRSPR/Cas9 technology.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09481645265615126897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-3854440878029287292017-04-17T12:54:49.246-04:002017-04-17T12:54:49.246-04:00Larry
"Ed Yong is an excellent science writer...Larry<br />"Ed Yong is an excellent science writer. I don't know why he is so opposed to the idea that many cancers are just due to bad luck. Why does that idea upset so many people?"<br /><br />The data supports more than luck is usually involved.<br /><br />" Other studies have shown similar reductions in risk for individual cancers, Dr Garland noted.<br />In one hospital-based case–control study, women with serum concentrations above 60 ng/mL had an 83% reduction in breast cancer risk, compared with women with concentrations below 20 ng/mL (P < .001) (Eur J Cancer. 2005;41:1164-1169)."<br /><br />We have a choice what our blood levels are. By measuring blood levels and monitoring sun exposure and/or taking supplements as needed to support healthy blood levels. <br />Bill Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06642212549806694659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-5759615294421268632017-04-17T07:33:39.336-04:002017-04-17T07:33:39.336-04:00all of that going to the gym and eating "corr...<i>all of that going to the gym and eating "correctly" has been in vain</i><br /><br />Well, perhaps not quite all of it. :-) There's likely a cardiovascular benefit, and there are all sorts of potential back and knee ailments that I'm guessing might be minimized by not carrying around that spare tire (which, of course, I am trying to lose). :-)judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-69085271901781630102017-04-17T07:25:20.105-04:002017-04-17T07:25:20.105-04:00Yes, it's impossible for any reasonable person...<i>Yes, it's impossible for any reasonable person to believe that different mutations might have different effects.</i><br /><br />This thread has really helped to clarify the problems some of our familiar ID/creationist folks have with the whole concept of critical scientific thinking.judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-27224786972738219632017-04-17T07:22:02.031-04:002017-04-17T07:22:02.031-04:00I looked at the 4 papers that Komen listed in the ...<i>I looked at the 4 papers that Komen listed in the meta analysis studies. 3 were blood level tests. All 3 supported the hypothesis that higher blood levels of vitamin d reduced the risk for breast cancer.</i><br /><br />Yes, Bill, the Susan G. Komen foundation is part of the big conspiracy to keep the good news that vitamin D cures cancer hidden, and they're so effective at it that you managed to penetrate their obfuscation by reading studies *they cited publicly on the Web*.<br /><br />Right down the rabbit hole, same as with evolution.judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-83542158936632685582017-04-17T05:03:27.293-04:002017-04-17T05:03:27.293-04:00If cancer is just due to bad luck, then you can...If cancer is just due to bad luck, then you can't control your own fate, and all of that going to the gym and eating "correctly" has been in vain.christine janishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14520766623263222808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-48273542985157123102017-04-16T09:41:12.265-04:002017-04-16T09:41:12.265-04:00Yes, it's impossible for any reasonable person...Yes, it's impossible for any reasonable person to believe that different mutations might have different effects.John Harshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04478895397136729867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-22035064246394122402017-04-16T01:56:44.530-04:002017-04-16T01:56:44.530-04:00Cancer is the result of mutations. I can't und...Cancer is the result of mutations. I can't understand how anybody could possibly entertain the idea that they built phenomenal molecular machines and complex biological systems. txpiperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03645156881353741058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-64104740517819074342017-04-15T09:53:27.374-04:002017-04-15T09:53:27.374-04:00Ed Yong is an excellent science writer. I don'...Ed Yong is an excellent science writer. I don't know why he is so opposed to the idea that many cancers are just due to bad luck. Why does that idea upset so many people?<br /><br />Do they want to drop into their local children's hospital and tell all the cancer patients that they could have avoided having cancer if they had been more careful? It's their fault (or their parents fault) that they have cancer?<br /><br /> Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-27130101485644951162017-04-15T03:18:30.158-04:002017-04-15T03:18:30.158-04:00Oops, last bit dropped off.
And when Bill is show...Oops, last bit dropped off.<br /><br />And when Bill is shown his errors, he'll pick up the goalposts and move them with general questions, which seem to be related to the topic at hand, but aren't, like:<br />"Would you agree that it helps if supplements are shown to raise blood levels?"<br />and<br />"Do you know of another vitamin that directly regulates the cell cycle?"<br /><br />Most alarmingly Bill also comes up with:<br />"Vitamin D...is now standard treatment for breast cancer."Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15924368353226400878noreply@blogger.com