tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post7935890512495443579..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Another View of ScienceLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-24797450744566361742009-10-15T02:58:24.190-04:002009-10-15T02:58:24.190-04:00Arv Edgeworth: "Real science takes no positio...Arv Edgeworth: "Real science takes no position on religion. It is supposed to be neutral, not anti. If someone says creation is a myth, or the Bible is false they are not functioning from a science perspective, but according to their purely naturalistic worldview. Real science would make no such claims."<br /><br />Science does not <i>explicitly</i> go and trash religion, no. <i>However</i>, it does and has come up with models that run contrary to certain "religious" claims about certain things, like with evolutionary theory and the development of life. Evolutionary theory was not designed specifically to trample over religion, it's what turned out to be the best available theory to fit the evidence. That it contradicts a literalist, fundamentalist Christian type of viewpoint is not a deliberate "conspiracy" or anything, but rather where the evidence led. As the evidence continues to mount for it and already forms an impressive mountain, it would seem extremely likely that the religious claims are wrong. Religion must be reasonable. If it does not square with reason, it is wrong. Real religion should create peace, love, and happiness, not war and destruction. And if you believe in God (I'd guess you do, since you seem to be advocating a "religious" point of view), you have to admit that God gave us rational faculties. Don't you think He/She/It would want us to use them? Hmm.<br /><br />Arv Edgeworth: "The theory of common descent has never been proven. You are looking at the evidence through a filter, which is your worldview. Interpreting all the evidence in light of that worldview is not proof the worldview is accurate.<br /><br />If an interpretation supports your worldview you receive it as truth, otherwise you will automatically reject it, instead of question your worldview."<br /><br />No, I'd question the world view. The problem is, so far, all evidence presented to "question" evolutionary theory has not held up when subjected to rigorous examination. Once questions and evidence suggesting them are posed, they need to then be put through rigorous method to see if they really challenge the theory that is being called into question, in this case evolutionary theory. So do you have any evidence that contradicts evolutionary theory, or any good reason why the current evidence for it is not adequate to prove it to a high degree of certainty?mike3https://www.blogger.com/profile/15516648613972933636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-54242308295741209532009-10-15T02:57:05.359-04:002009-10-15T02:57:05.359-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.mike3https://www.blogger.com/profile/15516648613972933636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-76987385464689868702009-10-14T07:09:18.978-04:002009-10-14T07:09:18.978-04:00Steve LaBonne wrote:
But I don't think it hurt...Steve LaBonne wrote:<br /><i>But I don't think it hurts to point out- to the people who pay the bills- that there are added benefits.</i><br /><br />I would go further than that and say that primary research may well be the highest return investment humanity has ever known. The fact that it takes a long time to turn a profit does not change this, although it does make it easier for demagogues and ignoramusses to muddy the waters.<br /><br />Surely this is something we should be making every effort to impress upon bean-counters of every description?Valhar2000https://www.blogger.com/profile/05467019327257867276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-55648238674692398632009-10-10T12:37:35.351-04:002009-10-10T12:37:35.351-04:00Mr. Edgeworth, it's obvious that the "rea...Mr. Edgeworth, it's obvious that the "real science" you've read has done nothing for your understanding or knowledge of actual science. Just as one example among many, multiple protein sequence alignments based on "macroevolution" have identified conserved pathways of information transfer in PDZ domains, subsequently validated by structural dynamics and thermodynamics experiments. Because these domains are quite common in signaling proteins in human beings, we may be able to develop treatments for a variety of illnesses by exploiting the unique instances of these pathways in specific proteins. They were shown to us not by prayer or interpreting protein sequence in the context of <i>Genesis</i> but by applying our knowledge and understanding of evolution.<br /><br />I feel the difference between scientific naturalism and secular humanism should be obvious. Secular humanism involves a set of moral beliefs believed to follow from the non-existence or irrelevance of god. "Scientific naturalism" is only the assumption that reality can be described by universal natural laws. This is a <i>sine qua non</i> of conducting any kind of research. Moreover, it is a principle you yourself use constantly because it is the logical tool we all use for learning, even learning how to use our own bodies. Despite your consistent use of this logical tool you apparently do not view yourself as a secular humanist; this should suggest to you that the two are quite different. Secular humanism derives moral conclusions from the assumption of scientific naturalism, but naturalism on its own does not include or imply any moral laws, because it is a way of building a descriptive picture of the universe, not a proscriptive one.Sparkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444352252473400411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-69216145401088541282009-10-09T17:21:01.797-04:002009-10-09T17:21:01.797-04:00"Macroevolution has not contributed one thing..."Macroevolution has not contributed one thing to the field of science."<br /><br />Incorrect. There is this little tool that geneticists / molecular biologists use every day, even when they are unaware that they are using evolutionary theory. It is called a BLAST search, and requires common descent of all life forms for it's function. I would assume this is macroevolution by your definition?<br /><br />http://blast.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Blast.cgiThe Other Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17570666738076378921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-53975312239010865992009-10-09T15:31:54.861-04:002009-10-09T15:31:54.861-04:00Real science takes no position on religion. It is ...Real science takes no position on religion. It is supposed to be neutral, not anti. If someone says creation is a myth, or the Bible is false they are not functioning from a science perspective, but according to their purely naturalistic worldview. Real science would make no such claims.<br /><br />To ERV, I am a retiree that makes similar to what you do. I hope you get a raise. Knowing how something works is not proof it was not designed. I won't bother to give examples.<br /><br />It's funny when someone disagrees with the microbe to man scenario, it must be because they just don't understand how it works. Kind of smacks of intellectualism. I've read the books, I just disagree with your conclusions. Have you read Darwin's Origin of Species, or Hutton's Theory of the Earth, or Lyell's Principles of Geology? You may borrow my copies if you would like. I have a great collection of science textbooks as well, over 150 of them.<br /><br />The theory of common descent has never been proven. You are looking at the evidence through a filter, which is your worldview. Interpreting all the evidence in light of that worldview is not proof the worldview is accurate.<br /><br />If an interpretation supports your worldview you receive it as truth, otherwise you will automatically reject it, instead of question your worldview.<br /><br />It is kind of like looking at evidence that seems to indicate design and purpose, but rejecting there is any evidence for design and purpose. It is also similar to saying that any scientist that does not accept Darwinian evolution is not really a true scientist, therefore all scientists believe in evolution. If a scientist does reject evolution on scientific grounds, just find some way of discrediting their credentials. After all, the majority scientific opinion has to rule.<br /><br />Can anyone think of a real difference between scientific naturalism and secular humanism, which has been ruled a religion by the US Supreme Court?<br /><br />Hey Veronica, sorry about your bad opinion of evangelists. Know any personally? You are not in the habit of stereotyping are you?Arv Edgeworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00001360729476520810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-40646277074759160562009-10-09T14:52:29.348-04:002009-10-09T14:52:29.348-04:00My name is Arv Edgeworth, I'm not sure where y...My name is Arv Edgeworth, I'm not sure where you got Andrew from Larry.<br /><br />The trillions of dollars I spoke of was of course not in one particular year, but over the course of time. But I'm sure the liberals in Washington would be glad to print up that much if you need it. What's another trillion dollars to add to the national debt?<br /><br />Larry Moran said: "The difference between science and other activities is that in science you have to convince your peers."<br /><br />Let me see if I have this straight. A scientist who is a scientific naturalist, has to convince other scientific naturalists that scientific naturalism is true. That must be quite an undertaking.<br /><br />Macroevolution has not contributed one thing to the field of science. The fact that things can adapt and change, or even natural selection, is not questioned by anyone. If that is what you mean by evolution," then no one disagrees with you. That is also not proof that humans came from complex chemicals in primordial soup. Mm Mm good! If that is all that is implied by the term "evolution," most people would probably be evolutionists.<br /><br />Ardi's bones were selected from about 36 possible skeletons, all in tiny and fragile pieces,all mixed together, mixed in with pieces of mammal bones, etc. What do you think their purpose was in putting that one skeleton together? Wouldn't have anything to do with their philosophical worldview would it? But you honestly don't believe they were trying to find a "missing link?"<br /><br />I love real science and love every field of it and would deny no one any funding. Most of you are probably underpaid and I commend you for your dedication. The majority of the science that gets published seems to have to do with somehow proving man evolved from a bacteria, or an ape-like ancestor.<br /><br />Apes (chimps & monkeys, etc.) went in a different direction from humans supposedly. Neanderthals, Cro-Magnon, Australopithecines, and Home-erectus are now considered by most to be nothing different than modern humans. There is just about a complete gap between humans and the supposed ape-like ancestor. The assumption that man evolved from "him" is not based on actual evidence, but only that assuption made by scientific naturalists. Separating what we know from what we just believe is sometimes a difficult endeavor.Arv Edgeworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00001360729476520810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-42030958861687665602009-10-08T06:55:34.571-04:002009-10-08T06:55:34.571-04:00Based on what I learned about evangelist Dr. Arv E...Based on what I learned about evangelist Dr. Arv Edgeworth at www.truthandscience.net/endorsements.htm<br />my response to Edgeworth is <br /><br />Thank you Arv Edgeworth for your email; however, I have taken the liberty of correcting one of the many errors in your message:<br /><br />"The amount of speculation and opinion that is being passed off as fact today in the name of [religion] boggles the mind. Scientific inquiry is being stiffled as [people] are not truly being trained how to think, they are just being told what to think. [People] many times are being indoctrinated [by evangelists], not educated."<br /><br />Dogs bark, but I never thought the government should give them tax free status for barking.Veronica Abbasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07037599323472646996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-54686328943844119022009-10-07T19:58:36.735-04:002009-10-07T19:58:36.735-04:00That's just another way of saying that the onl...<i>That's just another way of saying that the only value in basic science is that it contributes to new technological advances.</i> <br /><br />Not in my mind- I think your defense is the <i>primary</i> justification of curiosity-driven research. But I don't think it hurts to point out- to the people who pay the bills- that there are added benefits.Steve LaBonnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05315820864846104986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-9491504622841229702009-10-07T19:38:25.698-04:002009-10-07T19:38:25.698-04:00Now, to be fair, my understanding is that one piec...Now, to be fair, my understanding is that one piece of research aimed at disproving evolution has had considerable success. Chap by the name of Mendel, though it's a bit of a conjecture exactly what he was aiming at. In terms of antievolution it came rather unstuck with the modern evolutionary synthesis about 80 years after the research, but in terms of science he was onto a winner!davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05472098969204011008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-40391943414503661002009-10-07T19:00:49.959-04:002009-10-07T19:00:49.959-04:00Yes, everyone has presuppositions. But not all pr...Yes, everyone has presuppositions. But not all presuppositions are equal. Some presuppositions are necessary conventions, like definitions in science. You don't have to prove that the kelvin is 1/273.16 of the temperature of the triple point of water. You presuppose it and accept it by definition.<br /><br />Other presuppositions are ill-formed, often directly contradicting things for which we do have evidence, like the presupposition that the earth is 6000 years old.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-89630295516556255632009-10-07T16:49:21.542-04:002009-10-07T16:49:21.542-04:00Well, several have pointed out that there are not ...Well, several have pointed out that there are not trillions of dollars being spent on paleontology research, or even biomedical research. The other thing that needs to be said is that no serious scientist is trying to "prove" the theory of evolution. Current research related to evolution largely concerns the historical details (what happened during common descent) and mechanism (how evolution happened). This is not to say that we don't keep proving the theory of common descent over and over again. It's just that this typically happens when we're doing other things, like sequencing genomes.Sparkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10444352252473400411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-89604861186208748112009-10-07T16:11:35.355-04:002009-10-07T16:11:35.355-04:00Steve LaBonne says,
Another point I think should ...Steve LaBonne says,<br /><br /><i>Another point I think should be made in response to this old chestnut, in addition to your excellent response, is that quite often discoveries of major practical value emerge from research that initially appeared to be purely curiosity-driven, and indeed could NOT have emerged by being aimed at directly.</i><br><br>That's just another way of saying that the only value in basic science is that it contributes to new technological advances. <br /> <br />I'd like to avoid that argument altogether. We should value basic science in the same way we value the study of philosophy, history, and music. <br /><br />They all contribute to our knowledge of what's true and what's not. <br /><br />And that's a good thing all by itself. Anything else is just icing on the cake.<br><br>Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-46689725261726164722009-10-07T14:29:39.552-04:002009-10-07T14:29:39.552-04:00I've come across this rather short sighted arg...I've come across this rather short sighted argument in various forms - including in much different wording on our campus about natural vs. health sciences. Students come into health science fields in probably a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio because they are known careers. Resources get moved to support those students, leaving your biology program look like a pre-med/nursing/therapy program. <br /><br />How is this relevant? Without the "basic" research, how is medicine even a real academic field? What those that argue against basic research presuppose is that they can predict or know what research avenues are going to have eventual implications to applications like medicine. Of course they can't and it is research that basically nobody other than the government can fund sufficiently since the return on investment is unlikely and untimely. <br /><br />Additionally, where are we as a society if we don't understand the basics of the world around us? Ardi might have little eventual applications but aren't we richer for knowing about Ardi? Could we survive without my field of ecology? Probably, but it wouldn't be the same world.<br /><br />As for the idea that there are biases inherent to scientists that show up in their work; while there is some truth to that statement, science also has a great way to separate facts and ideology...which is exactly why many don't see the value in basic science.Dr. Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-52933146138277604502009-10-07T13:11:38.926-04:002009-10-07T13:11:38.926-04:00"The amount of speculation and opinion that i..."The amount of speculation and opinion that is being passed off as fact today in the name of science boggles the mind."<br /><br />This passage speaks to an ongoing conversation about the nature of science I have with a few friends of mine that are not science-minded. They so lack science fundamentals that it becomes impossible for them to fathom how science could possibly make a statement like "the universe is expanding." Then after you explain the doppler effect, they begin to understand its implications. <br /><br />I've even had conversations about Ardi with other molecular biologists incredulous of anthropologists' ability to discern mating habits from incomplete skeletons. <br /><br />I'd attribute the problem equally to ignorance and lack of imagination.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17949972520871418816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-55169407568706589402009-10-07T12:19:31.495-04:002009-10-07T12:19:31.495-04:00Abby nailed it right on the head - cancer isn'...Abby nailed it right on the head - cancer isn't' a single disease, its dozens, if not hundreds, of separate diseases. And we've made tremendous progress in treating some forms of it - when was the last time you heard of someone dying of stomach cancer. 50 years ago it was among the most common kind of cancer.<br /><br />I think the underlying tone of this paper pretty accurately reflects a common public opinion - not just one of creationists. I don't think many people appreciate that basic research is needed before we can take more "directed" approaches to finding cures for diseases. After all, how do you figure out something is broken when you don't know how it works in the first place?<br /><br />I currently study apoptosis, and prior to that I did immunology. While I suspect many here make more use of evolutionary theory than I do, understanding it has played an important part in both projects. Even simple analysis like homology searches are predicated on a huge body of evolutionary knowledge.<br /><br />Larry aksa "What's the alternative?"<br /><br />We all know the answer to that - all humanity suffered through untold millennia of the "alternative".Bryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16672407110077541595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-58382734022252799642009-10-07T11:50:28.791-04:002009-10-07T11:50:28.791-04:00I recall that he would take special delight in inc...<i> I recall that he would take special delight in including research that had received a "Golden Fleece" award from U.S. Senator William Proxmire.</i><br /><br />A tradition faithfully carried on by John McCain and Sarah Palin.Dave Wiskernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-18138329179942887802009-10-07T11:01:08.941-04:002009-10-07T11:01:08.941-04:00I am reminded of the wonderful TV Series Connectio...I am reminded of the wonderful TV Series <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_%28TV_series%29" rel="nofollow">Connections</a>, narrated by James Burke. For each episode he would trace the progress of one idea through history. I recall that he would take special delight in including research that had received a "Golden Fleece" award from U.S. Senator William Proxmire.Bayesian Bouffant, FCDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-29945505498616444592009-10-07T10:37:21.382-04:002009-10-07T10:37:21.382-04:00Cancer is not one disease. There are lots of kind...Cancer is not one disease. There are lots of kinds of cancer caused by lots of different things. Ignoring the fact we can 'cure' numerous kinds of cancers today that we couldnt treat 20 years ago, the research done in my lab, which requires evolution, will one day help treat certain kinds of cancer.<br /><br />It also could help diagnose early, if not treat multiple sclerosis.<br /><br />It might have more implications that we are currently unaware of.<br /><br />My research, personally, requires evolution, and will lead towards a viable, logical HIV-1 vaccine. After some recent totally unrelated vaccine trials, Im more confident of that than ever.<br /><br />Furthermore, we have used evolution in studying HIV-1 that has given us insight into how our immune system works, which in turn, helps us treat other diseases... Like cancer.<br /><br />How many cures for cancer has evangelism given us?<br /><br /><br />And as far as 'money' goes-- I wonder if he has a clue how much scientists actually make. How much we make relative to the years of education we have.<br /><br />To be perfectly frank, Mr. Edgeworth, Im a genius. I can, and do, do whatever I want. If I wanted to be a billionaire, I would have not chosen 'scientist' as my career path. Im 26, trying to cure HIV/AIDS and certain kinds of cancer, and I make ~$19,000 a year.<br /><br />How much do *you* make a year, Mr. Edgeworth?<br /> <br />*frown*ERVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02070086354372691880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-44529848355387205472009-10-07T10:36:08.635-04:002009-10-07T10:36:08.635-04:00The writer also seems to be doing the old, "k...The writer also seems to be doing the old, "kids these days are [something worse] than when I was a kid," routine by presupposing that scientists in the past were less ideologically driven than they are now.Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09564422379289609580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-84865042736475893252009-10-07T10:21:50.135-04:002009-10-07T10:21:50.135-04:00When people question the value of basic research, ...When people question the value of basic research, I always like to point out that technological advances are predicated on the output of such research. <br /><br />One of the best examples, at least in physics, is a paper written by Albert Einstein in which he described a phenomena called stimulated emission of photons. At the time, it appeared to be something of only academic interest. However, I suspect that Mr. Edgeworth, in all probability, typed his email message to Prof. Moran on a computer that had either a CD or a DVD drive. Guess what, those devices utilize a laser, the theoretical basis of which was first described in Einsteins' paper.SLCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-42910373685479151002009-10-07T10:17:06.616-04:002009-10-07T10:17:06.616-04:00I'm sure you are enamored with evolution theor...<i>I'm sure you are enamored with evolution theory, but why are trillions of dollars in funding and research being spent on trying to prove this theory is true, and we still don't have a cure for cancer?</i><br /><br /><b>Trillions</b> of dollars? On trying to prove evolution? What color is the sky on the planet where fundegelicals live? I think if you put together all the money which is set aside for science research of all branches in the entire world, you might get a trillion a year. Of that, basically nothing is being spent on trying to "prove evolution" any more than money is being spent on mathematical research to prove the multiplication tables.<br /><br />(Is there any way we can get some of that money from planet fundie over here on Earth? The right wingers have screwed up the world's economies something terrible over the last couple of decades, and the money would come in very handy about now...)The Vicarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-35448045984402421222009-10-07T09:58:09.369-04:002009-10-07T09:58:09.369-04:00What universe does this character live in, that ba...<i>What universe does this character live in, that basic "curiosity-driven" research is funded so much better than health-related research?</i><br /><br />Why, the wingnut universe, of course. The one in which facts are stupid thingsSteve LaBonnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05315820864846104986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-55365277448452507082009-10-07T09:53:02.643-04:002009-10-07T09:53:02.643-04:00I'm sure you are enamored with evolution theor...<i>I'm sure you are enamored with evolution theory, but why are trillions of dollars in funding and research being spent on trying to prove this theory is true, and we still don't have a cure for cancer?</i><br /><br />What universe does this character live in, that basic "curiosity-driven" research is funded so much better than health-related research? I do not recognize that universe.Bayesian Bouffant, FCDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-88755266880371179292009-10-07T09:51:54.292-04:002009-10-07T09:51:54.292-04:00"The amount of speculation and opinion that i..."The amount of speculation and opinion that is being passed off as fact today in the name of science boggles the mind."<br /><br />Steve Gould has an essay in <i>Hens Teeth and Horses Toes</i> that touches on this point ('Quaggas, Coiled Oysters, and Flimsy Facts'). In it, he states something that is one of my favourite lines in the entire book:<br /><br />"Sturdy facts are pervasive patterns in nature, not individual peculiarities."Justin Wagnernoreply@blogger.com