tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post7878215808854219979..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Alternative Medicine at the University of TorontoLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-46027332166326503242010-12-09T12:41:37.284-05:002010-12-09T12:41:37.284-05:00Rebecca,
When I talked to one of the instructors ...Rebecca,<br /><br />When I talked to one of the instructors a few years ago he claimed that there was solid scientific evidence of the effectiveness of homeopathy. <br /><br />Is that still being taught?<br /><br />There must be a number of different alternative and "complimentary" treatments discussed in the course. Which ones were NOT debunked by critical thinking and scientific evidence? <br /><br />If the answer is none, then what's the purpose of having a course on quackery? If the answer is anything else then you should be able to list those alternative treatments that stand up to critical thinking.<br /><br />Waiting ...<br /><br>Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-84943063926443280632010-12-08T22:32:10.790-05:002010-12-08T22:32:10.790-05:00Hello all,
I am a student at the University of To...Hello all,<br /><br />I am a student at the University of Toronto pursuing a specialist in human biology, and I'm currently enrolled in HMB434. You should also know that I have been working at the University Health Network in research for two years, have published, and have presented my findings at a national conference. I'm a big fan of the scientific method. I am not particularly a believer in complementary or alternative medicine.<br /><br />Now that you know where I'm coming from, I feel that I can speak honestly. HMB434 has been a great class. We were encouraged to think critically about the health and wellness practices that many people around the world use. There was a very strong emphasis on the power of randomized, double blind control trials and investigations into the underlying biochemical and physiological mechanisms that may explain the 'useless anecdotal evidence'. Truth is, I believe that much of it is bogus, but 'complementary and alternative medicine' is such a broad field that I would be a fool to say that it's all illegitimate. At the end of the day, many complementary therapies have been proven through RCT methods and accepted by the scientific community. But that's when we drop the 'alternative' and just start calling it medicine.Rebecca Zurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05356427644873636259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-41046491908749496452010-07-30T18:44:31.689-04:002010-07-30T18:44:31.689-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08288271716139942291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-35224895091816515462009-10-21T19:21:57.784-04:002009-10-21T19:21:57.784-04:00...most phamraceutical drugs don't work most o...<i>...most phamraceutical drugs don't work most of the time in most patients but everyone talks about how this other stuff doesn't work.</i><br /><br />I'm not sure the word 'most' applies, but the point is taken. But one thing that lot of these alternatives have going for them is that most do not cause any direct harm. I mean, how can you have a nasty side effect from a few drops of water, or a foot massage? Yes, depriving the patient of proper treatment is harmful, but things like homeopathy or reflexology aren't dangerous in themselves. And the quacks play that card regularly.The Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487724361976424018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-7075618978085338752009-10-21T16:53:05.190-04:002009-10-21T16:53:05.190-04:00Th efnny thing is that most phamraceuticla drugs d...Th efnny thing is that most phamraceuticla drugs don't work most of the time in most patients but everyone talks about how this other stuff doesn't work.Josephnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-20339259100228355102009-10-20T17:52:01.431-04:002009-10-20T17:52:01.431-04:00Depending upon where you work this may or may not ...Depending upon where you work this may or may not be safe, but here is a funny take on alt-med with some very good points along the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIaV8swc-fo&feature=PlayList&p=F938FC11379BC817The Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487724361976424018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-82991262749873152132009-10-20T14:34:11.001-04:002009-10-20T14:34:11.001-04:00This is actually rather old news:
http://scienceb...This is actually rather old news:<br /><br />http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/08/autism_quackery_at_the_university_of_tor.php<br /><br />In any case, what really disturbed me was the weaselly response to complaints that SickKids Foudnation issued:<br /><br />http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/08/sickkids_foundation_supports_woo.phpOrachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01370846202152605202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-58169227065163229622009-10-20T13:09:46.628-04:002009-10-20T13:09:46.628-04:00...I should hope a university like the U of Toront...<i>...I should hope a university like the U of Toronto would offer a class in this area of study.</i><br /><br />How can they waste resources to teach a class in something that has thus far shown no indication of any scientific merit? You may as well teach a class on UFOs that assumes an extraterrestrial origin, or on talking to the dead. Let someone come up with some concrete evidence first.The Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487724361976424018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-82242351213259720452009-10-19T11:08:32.374-04:002009-10-19T11:08:32.374-04:00Well, since there actually is something called &qu...Well, since there actually is something called "complementary and alternative medicine" and since it is an area of active research and scholarship, I should hope a university like the U of Toronto would offer a class in this area of study. We need more evidence and research exploring all of the various CAM modalities' effectiveness/efficacy AND comparing their effectiveness/efficacy with other "traditional" (i.e., so-called Western medicine) modalities. Without introducing students to this subject, that evidence will be slow to come.probably too rational for this blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-38824057220430094092009-10-18T21:25:46.095-04:002009-10-18T21:25:46.095-04:00More excellent exposing of homeopathic BS from an ...More excellent exposing of homeopathic BS from an archive post by Orac:<br /><br />http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/08/your_friday_dose_of_woo_a_homeopathic_jo.php<br /><br />Yessirree Bob, those homeopaths go that extra mile! Make up some pseudoscientific words, pretend there are "vital life forces" etc. that mere science cannot possibly deal with, warp real scientific theories for their own irrational ends, throw in some bogus math and statistics, get snarky (for no good reason) about how real science "mistreats" homepathy, and of course for the coup de grace, trot out the Galileo Gambit and whine about persecution. Pseudoscience at its irrational best, for all the world to see.<br /><br />WKMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-81118649777189454422009-10-18T20:05:19.269-04:002009-10-18T20:05:19.269-04:00Here's a great example of alternative medicine...Here's a great example of <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091018/ap_on_re_us/us_sweat_lodge_deaths" rel="nofollow">alternative medicine in action!</a>rich lawlerhttp://www.propithecus-verreauxi.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-17713440302965119062009-10-18T18:23:41.216-04:002009-10-18T18:23:41.216-04:00Here's an indicator of how homeopathy does not...Here's an indicator of how homeopathy does not work. Growing in many of the marshes in southern Ontario is the Water Hemlock, <i>Cicuta maculata</i>, a plant which is so toxic that some have described it as 'deadly to taste', meaning that you don't even need to swallow it. Just put a sprig in your mouth, swill it around a bit, and a 911 call becomes a waste of time. (No, I will not divulge locations no matter how wretched one's mother-in-law is) Now picture a bit of this dropping off into the water and floating away. According to homeopathy this makes it even stronger. Now it goes with the flow and enters the Great Lakes system, becoming even more dilute and powerful. It gets picked up by a tube out in the lake, enters one of our supply lines, and comes gurgling out of our taps. We all drink it, and... NOTHING HAPPENS! HALLEfreakin'LUJAH! IT'S A MIRACLE!<br /><br />Or it's all bovid feces.The Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487724361976424018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-10032224962096606312009-10-18T16:21:06.108-04:002009-10-18T16:21:06.108-04:00Well Anonymous, as The Rat says, there has been si...Well Anonymous, as The Rat says, there has been significant scientific investigation of homeopathy and acupuncture. Your assertion of "Contempt prior to investigation" is particularly galling. The bottom line in all properly conducted studies is that there is NO scientific evidence to indicate that these alternatives have any basis in reality. In case you didn't know science is the only method there is to investigate, understand and predict what will happen in the real world. Your anecdotal "evidence" is meaningless in scientific terms. Anyone with any amount of scientific training or education can easily see that homeopathy is total BS. It is based on two major and completely erroneous notions. Water does NOT have a "memory" contrary to homeo claims; this has been investigated and no scientific evidence exists for the claim. The inverse dilution homeo claim is also bogus, as again there is no scientific evidence for such a bizarre idea. So the scientific community has investigated, found no scientific evidence and rejected the validity of homeopathy and acupuncture. If you do not understand scientific method, you need to educate yourself before making ridiculous assertions. Any claims in support of homeopathy based on scientific illiteracy or misrepresentation, faith, anecdotal "evidence" will always be rejected by the scientific community. Such claims are the problem and will never be part of the solution.<br /><br />Here are some references so you can learn why homeopathy does not work:<br /><br />Abgrall, Jean-Marie (2000): Healing Or Stealing?: Medical Charlatans in the New Age. Algora Publishing, 248p.<br /><br />Holmes, Oliver Wendell (1842). Homœopathy, and its Kindred Delusions; two lectures delivered before the Boston society for the diffusion of useful knowledge.. Boston: William D. Ticknor. OCLC 166600876. http://homeoint.org/cazalet/holmes/index.htm. Retrieved on 2007-07-25.<br /><br />Shelton, J. W. (2004): Homeopathy: How it Really Works. Prometheus Press, 318 p.<br /><br />WKMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-33105706726565746112009-10-18T13:50:06.987-04:002009-10-18T13:50:06.987-04:00Contempt prior to investigation does not help anyo...<i>Contempt prior to investigation does not help anyone.</i><br /><br />There has been lots of investigation. It has shown that 'alternative medicine' has very little, if any, efficacy.The Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487724361976424018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-81569453861894407452009-10-18T13:13:21.772-04:002009-10-18T13:13:21.772-04:00The Human Biology Program email address is easy to...The Human Biology Program email address is easy to find on the website; however, "E-mails and phone messages may not be answered during peak times of the year." No doubt this is one of the "peak times of the year" and messages of protest will, most likely, not be acknowledged or read.Veronica Abbasshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07037599323472646996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-59810227766957473252009-10-18T12:31:21.461-04:002009-10-18T12:31:21.461-04:00I appreciate the approach of integrative medicine ...I appreciate the approach of integrative medicine as I've had a lot of success personally with chinese herbs and accupuncture treatments. I think there is a lot to learn from other cultures and their approaches to health. The western model of science does not have the only answers. Contempt prior to investigation does not help anyone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-29249764914006222802009-10-18T11:05:30.614-04:002009-10-18T11:05:30.614-04:00I am not about to take out a subscription to the N...I am not about to take out a subscription to the NEJM, but reading the extracts of the 14 hits related to 'homeopathy' on their web site gives no indication, at least to me, that any article has ever been published in that august journal that in any way verifies the efficacy of it. The person to whom you spoke was, to put it mildly, a liar.The Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487724361976424018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-80095182850095023652009-10-18T10:52:44.526-04:002009-10-18T10:52:44.526-04:00Apparently, studies in The New England Journal of ...<i>Apparently, studies in The New England Journal of Medicine have proven that homeopathy works. Students are encouraged to read about this scientific evidence for homeopathy.</i><br /><br />I would have asked him to provide the articles in question, because I'm certain that his statement is equid excrement.The Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487724361976424018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-40635285142666786792009-10-18T10:05:31.745-04:002009-10-18T10:05:31.745-04:00Dunbar says,
This is crazy stuff. Plus, the cours...Dunbar says,<br /><br /><i>This is crazy stuff. Plus, the course lecturers are one medical doctor in internal medicine (http://www.gim.utoronto.ca/Faculty/facultylist/Dr__Timothy_Cook.htm) and one postdoc (http://www.health.uottawa.ca/profs/bourgeault/Supervisor.html). I'm very tempted to go to one of the classes and see for myself. In fact, if anyone can go and report back, the classes are Tuesday 10-12 PM at WI 524 (Wilson Hall).</i><br><br />I've spoken to one of the instructors. He was very annoyed when I suggested that homeopathy was quackery. He told me that I just wasn't very familiar with the scientific literature. <br /><br />Apparently, there are physicists who have proven that water can retain memory and that's what the instructor teaches in class. <br /><br />Apparently, studies in <i>The New England Journal of Medicine</i> have proven that homeopathy works. Students are encouraged to read about this scientific evidence for homeopathy.<br /><br />This is what we teach science students at the University of Toronto.<br><br>Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-59831556539648873952009-10-18T09:59:01.848-04:002009-10-18T09:59:01.848-04:00Dave Baily asks,
Larry, this is definitely an aff...Dave Baily asks,<br /><br /><i>Larry, this is definitely an affront to common sense. I am seriously thinking about putting together some sort of information picket, with handouts about homeopathy and other quackery. If we can get something together in time do you know what the rules are regarding such things on university property? Would we be allowed?</i><br><br />What could anyone do about it if we handed out pamphlets? The best thing that could happen would be if the protesters were arrested or thrown off campus, right? <br /><br />The university police would never do that 'cause they know better.<br><br>Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-2546706739673222542009-10-17T18:57:36.599-04:002009-10-17T18:57:36.599-04:00For HMB434, it's a tough call, even with the s...For HMB434, it's a tough call, even with the syllabus. They could just be investigating which parts of cultural medicine contain scientific validity and how it works (i.e. Plant X, commonly used in culture A, contains chemical Y which undergoes pharmacological action Z to alleviate symptoms of disease B) and combining it with anthropological studies.Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-38408651786069571372009-10-17T14:44:17.670-04:002009-10-17T14:44:17.670-04:00HMB434H1 is surely an embarrasment to UT. Then aga...HMB434H1 is surely an embarrasment to UT. Then again, the its Human Biology Program offers a lot of non-science courses that are credited as science. E.g.:<br /><br /><i>HMB444H1<br />Human Biology and Human Destiny: Science, Popular Science, and Science Fiction [24S]<br /><br />Seminars explore the interactions of biological sciences, social issues, and literature. Through reading of classic “SF” novels and popular writings by prominent twentieth century biologists in their historical, scientific, and thematic contexts, we examine how biological concepts and their development affected life, society, and the future of humanity.</i> <br /><br />LOL. <br /><br /><i>HMB306H1<br />Epistemological Ethics in Medicine [20L, 4S]<br /><br />Decisions in medicine are affected by the practice of science. For example, experimental design, knowledge acquisition and claims, standards of proof, and regulatory processes can raise ethical issues in clinical practice. This is clearly evident in cases where the negative impact of a disease on health is high. This course focuses on these non-bioethical problems in biomedical science.</i><br /><br />Umm, WTF is epistemological ethics? Can anyone understand what this course is about and how it is science? <br /><br /><i>HMB303H1<br />Global Health and Human Rights</i><br /><br />And on and on. Seems like about 1/4 of the classes there have nothing to do with science and very little with human biology.DKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-68538075780236832312009-10-17T12:42:36.673-04:002009-10-17T12:42:36.673-04:00Larry, this is definitely an affront to common sen...Larry, this is definitely an affront to common sense. I am seriously thinking about putting together some sort of information picket, with handouts about homeopathy and other quackery. If we can get something together in time do you know what the rules are regarding such things on university property? Would we be allowed?<br /><br />Dave Bailey, Chairperson, Association for Science and Reason (formerly Skeptics Canada)The Rathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487724361976424018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-73559674591374652562009-10-17T12:30:27.289-04:002009-10-17T12:30:27.289-04:00Aside from the HMB434H1 course title, the course d...Aside from the HMB434H1 course title, the course description is fairly inoffensive. I went looking for the actual course syllabus, and boy, it doesn't disappoint:<br />"Complementary/alternative medicine (“CAM”) is used in health care systems not only in North America, but also in countries such as China, India, and Vietnam (WHO, 2002). It involves the use of non-biomedical, “holistic” and/or culturally-specific health services and practices in the treatment of illness and disease (such as Chinese acupuncture), and an expanded concept of health, illness, and wellness. This course provides an introduction to the concepts, theoretical basis, evidence-based analysis, and pressing challenges and issues in CAM today. Specific topics include introductions to: complementary/ alternative medicine in industrialized countries and commonly used modalities such as homeopathy and naturopathic medicine; traditional medicine (TM) and primary health care (PHC); traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) and China; Ayurvedic medicine in India; Canada’s First Nations; and integrative health systems and models. Course format includes lectures, guest-presentations, films/documentaries, and interactive class discussions/exercises. Students will also have the opportunity to analyze CAM systems and modalities."<br /><br />The course topics include, but probably not limited to, chiropractic, naturopathic and herbal medicine, homeopathy, traditional Chinese medicine, Tibetan medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, and First Nations' medicine. I'd be less concerned if the course were strictly an anthropological review of traditional cultural practices in medicine, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Heck, they even have a lecture on "evidence"-based medicine.<br /><br />This is crazy stuff. Plus, the course lecturers are one medical doctor in internal medicine (http://www.gim.utoronto.ca/Faculty/facultylist/Dr__Timothy_Cook.htm) and one postdoc (http://www.health.uottawa.ca/profs/bourgeault/Supervisor.html). I'm very tempted to go to one of the classes and see for myself. In fact, if anyone can go and report back, the classes are Tuesday 10-12 PM at WI 524 (Wilson Hall).Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02590604089043425452noreply@blogger.com