tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post7699107998088179779..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Should Creationism Be Banned?Larry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-15624405421816019302011-10-07T10:09:20.402-04:002011-10-07T10:09:20.402-04:00@Atheistoclast: I reject teaching kids naturalisti...@Atheistoclast: <i>I reject teaching kids naturalistic philosophy in the science classroom and would prefer that they be taught about the manifest role of divine intervention in Nature.</i><br /><br />You'd have to demonstrate the existence of your god in order for this statement to have any weight at all. Of course, the problem is the argument is entirely circular:<br /><br />God causes complex beings to exist by design; that they are complex means they are designed; that they are designed proves there's a God, who causes complex beings to exist by design; that they are complex means they are designed; that they are designed proves there's a God, who causes complex beings to exist bydesign; that they are complex means they are designed; that they are designed proves there's a God, who causes complex beings to exist by... etc., etc., etc.<br /><br />No, first you have to demonstrate there is such a being. Then, you have to demonstrate that this being created the universe, or, barring that, at least that it intervenes in the processes of life and HOW it does. Not start from "this is complex" and leap to the conclusion there's a god.<br /><br /><i>If I were the teacher, I would poke fun at the Darwinists and other such folks.</i><br /><br />Yeah, that would be a hoot. "Ha ha, them crazy evilutionists! They believe natural things happen naturally, and they don't believe an invisible man in the sky with a big white invisible beard made it all and watches us so he can get upset if humans get naked! Yuk yuk yuk!"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-52175193441795550702011-10-01T05:05:07.363-04:002011-10-01T05:05:07.363-04:00Atheistoclast said...
Bede, did believe that the ...Atheistoclast said... <br /><i>Bede, did believe that the Anglo-Saxons were settling in their promised land just as the Hebrews had done in Canaan.</i><br />Anglo-Saxons were his own group. Why stick to his belief?<br /><br /><i>We should see the spread of the English language as divinely ordained</i><br />And the spread of the Spanish language, and the spread of Chinese, and ... (name any colonial power).'Divinely ordained' comes with a lot bloodshed. The Old Testament did not disapprove of bloodshed if it was by Israelites, it is true, but is rather against the bloodshed by Assyrians or Babylonians or Greeks that spread their languageheleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17358426050959144140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-74989787308836799122011-10-01T04:02:20.890-04:002011-10-01T04:02:20.890-04:00We should see the spread of the English language a...<i>We should see the spread of the English language as divinely ordained whether it is jingoistic or not.</i><br /><br />Blink. God talks English, now? <br /><br /><i>I believe that a love of God and country can solve most of our social ills.</i><br /><br />Blink. Blink. And if people love the wrong God, or a different country (or a more liberal version of the 'right' country)? Well, let's just wade in and sort 'em out!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-64048525623378727742011-09-30T22:50:20.274-04:002011-09-30T22:50:20.274-04:00Of course creationism and intelligent design shoul...Of course creationism and intelligent design should not be banned from schools. But that is not what is being proposed.<br /><br /><i>There should be enforceable statutory <b>guidance</b> that they <b>may not be presented as scientific theories</b> in any publicly-funded school of whatever type.</i><br /><br />In other words the signatories are saying there is nothing wrong with <b>discussing</b> intelligent design or creationism in science classes, just don't present them as if they were established scientific theories of the same stature as evolution.<br /><br />They also want to give statutory force to that view and that should make us wary. Political and legal decrees about what constitutes good science raise the specter of Lysenkoism or the similar creationist attempts to measure good science by the extent to which it accords with Scripture. Obviously that's not what's intended but we need to have the confidence that science can look after itself.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11311738457332907931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-24209515143241916462011-09-30T18:49:08.873-04:002011-09-30T18:49:08.873-04:00@Heleen
We have lots of Anglo-Saxon texts (includ...@Heleen<br /><br />We have lots of Anglo-Saxon texts (including the Lord's Prayer)written by monks. One of them, Bede, did believe that the Anglo-Saxons were settling in their promised land just as the Hebrews had done in Canaan.<br /><br />We should see the spread of the English language as divinely ordained whether it is jingoistic or not. I believe that a love of God and country can solve most of our social ills. We need more scientists like Newton and less like Darwin.Atheistoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-68758267234439570682011-09-30T09:44:33.666-04:002011-09-30T09:44:33.666-04:00Does that Lord's Prayer in Anglo-Saxon actuall...Does that Lord's Prayer in Anglo-Saxon actually appear in a reputable manuscript, or is it a reconstruction by some scholar?heleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17358426050959144140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-5068990508202024302011-09-30T09:42:59.198-04:002011-09-30T09:42:59.198-04:00@Atheistoclast
It was Thomas Jefferson, supposedly...@Atheistoclast<br /><i>It was Thomas Jefferson, supposedly a Deist or Atheist, who likened the Anglo-Saxons and their legendary chiefs, Hengist and Horsa, to the children of Israel and the God's chosen nation. He was stating that America had a divine mission just as pilgrim father, John Winthrop had done.</i><br /><br />Such ideas about the Anglo-Saxons as the children of Israel or a divine mission for America are rather jingoistic, isn't it? Especially as Hengist and Horsa or their historical equivalents quite likely were a bunch of heathen mercenaries deciding to exploit a somewhat christian romanized Britain. <br />Other nations had similar, but competing, foundation myths. All very 19th century. Such opinions about 'chosen people' and 'divine mission' had better be forgotten.heleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17358426050959144140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-28172722887275824742011-09-30T09:16:04.421-04:002011-09-30T09:16:04.421-04:00"He was stating that America had a divine mis..."He was stating that America had a divine mission just as pilgrim father, John Winthrop had done."<br /><br />Pure weapons-grade drivel. You're opining that Jefferson, who was at most a deist, and you imply possibly an atheist, thought America had a devine mission? Huh?<br />On my planet, words have meanings, and an atheist or deist would not think anything had a "devine mission."<br /><br />"We need to stop appeasing the liberals, secularists and atheists."<br /><br />How? By denying them their right of free speech?waldteufelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-16359893209538086202011-09-30T07:51:41.843-04:002011-09-30T07:51:41.843-04:00@Heleen
I think it sensible that all western chil...@Heleen<br /><br /><i>I think it sensible that all western children learn the Lord's Prayer in their own present day language: after all, this is part of their cultural heritage. Same for a basic understanding of christianity and bible knowledge.</i> <br /><br />I am amazed at how much ignorance there is in the English-speaking world of its own heritage. We need to learn about our cultural ancestors and their traditions.<br /><br />It was Thomas Jefferson, supposedly a Deist or Atheist, who likened the Anglo-Saxons and their legendary chiefs, Hengist and Horsa, to the children of Israel and the God's chosen nation. He was stating that America had a divine mission just as pilgrim father, John Winthrop had done.<br /><br />We need to stop appeasing the liberals, secularists and atheists.Atheistoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-64864447724815999702011-09-30T03:51:35.857-04:002011-09-30T03:51:35.857-04:00Atheistoclast said...
I would also insist that al...Atheistoclast said... <br /><i>I would also insist that all English-speaking children learn to recite the Lord's Prayer in Anglo-Saxon</i><br /><br />I think it sensible that all western children learn the Lord's Prayer in their own present day language: after all, this is part of their cultural heritage. Same for a basic understanding of christianity and bible knowledge. After all, it is difficult to understand many good paintings without some of that knowledge.<br /><br />I don't see where the Anglo-Saxon comes in. Why not the original Greek, if one opts for something nobody nowadays can understand?heleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17358426050959144140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-18244258632105753202011-09-29T19:20:00.093-04:002011-09-29T19:20:00.093-04:00... virtue and religion
Like a particle-antiparti...... virtue and religion<br /><br />Like a particle-antiparticle pair they annihilate each other.steve oberskinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-2585798990491582492011-09-29T19:11:15.619-04:002011-09-29T19:11:15.619-04:00Since when has intelligent design been "super...<i>Since when has intelligent design been "supernatural" or undemonstrated? </i><br /><br />Ha ha. So the big deal is that we should teach kids that intelligent human designers can design things? In biology class? I fancy that ID says something a little more profound (and disputable) than that, Slippery Jim!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-68685126178661750722011-09-29T18:57:50.547-04:002011-09-29T18:57:50.547-04:00I would also insist that all English-speaking chil...<i>I would also insist that all English-speaking children learn to recite the Lord's Prayer in Anglo-Saxon:<br /><br />Prayer in schools<br /><br />It is time to return to the old values of virtue and religion.</i><br /><br />Aye. Let's round up everone not in church on a Sunday, and give em a damn good thrashing. Maybe whip women who are caught driving, and shove red hot pokers up the arses of the non-believers and Friday meat-eaters. Or are we not talking <i>quite</i> that old-tyme?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-31750281952637298342011-09-29T18:01:40.868-04:002011-09-29T18:01:40.868-04:00I would also insist that all English-speaking chil...I would also insist that all English-speaking children learn to recite the Lord's Prayer in Anglo-Saxon:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blDM-ibezJQ" rel="nofollow">Prayer in schools</a> <br /><br />It is time to return to the old values of virtue and religion.Atheistoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-49497721279427736792011-09-29T16:11:12.497-04:002011-09-29T16:11:12.497-04:00And raise a generation of scientists who do waste ...<i>And raise a generation of scientists who do waste time speculating about supernatural origins that cannot be tested or demonstrated?</i><br /><br />Since when has intelligent design been "supernatural" or undemonstrated? We live in a world shaped by our own creativity and intelligence. Where would genetic and protein engineering be without ID? What do you think Dr. Craig Venter is doing with his work on synthetic genomes?<br /><br />We need ID taught as the cornerstone of biology.Atheistoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-47151850712163434762011-09-29T15:42:30.989-04:002011-09-29T15:42:30.989-04:00"You have to acknowledge that more people thi..."You have to acknowledge that more people think as I do."<br /><br />There was a time when virtually everyone on the planet thought they lived on a flat earth with the sun revolving about it.<br /><br />ID is really nothing more than an argument from ignorance. Now you have merely layered on the additional logical falacy of argument from popularity.waldteufelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-72906610280161627202011-09-29T15:02:17.637-04:002011-09-29T15:02:17.637-04:00The sooner we teach ID in the schools, the sooner ...<i>The sooner we teach ID in the schools, the sooner we can raise a new generation of scientists who don't waste time speculating about naturalistic origins that cannot be tested or demonstrated.</i><br /><br />And raise a generation of scientists who do waste time speculating about supernatural origins that cannot be tested or demonstrated?<br /><br />Super! (rubs hands) I can hardly wait!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-37462207918862117492011-09-29T11:20:38.642-04:002011-09-29T11:20:38.642-04:00Allan,
I'll get back to you on the genetic co...Allan,<br /><br />I'll get back to you on the genetic code - and why it is an intelligent design - when I have my suspension lifted on Saturday over at Ratskep.<br /><br />I reject teaching kids naturalistic philosophy in the science classroom and would prefer that they be taught about the manifest role of divine intervention in Nature. In a democracy, the will of the majority needs to be respected as well as the rights of the minority. You have to acknowledge that more people think as I do.<br /><br />The sooner we teach ID in the schools, the sooner we can raise a new generation of scientists who don't waste time speculating about naturalistic origins that cannot be tested or demonstrated.Atheistoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-92226849064499572972011-09-29T10:26:59.015-04:002011-09-29T10:26:59.015-04:00"I am writing a scientific paper that strongl..."I am writing a scientific paper that strongly implies this."<br /><br />*Snickers*<br /><br />I can't wait to see your paper published in a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal.waldteufelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-32755087274114696542011-09-29T07:30:57.397-04:002011-09-29T07:30:57.397-04:00Allan,
Evolutionism is inherently untestable and ...<i>Allan,<br /><br />Evolutionism is inherently untestable and unfalsifiable.</i><br /><br />Tripe. God is; evolution, no. <br /><br /><i>The genetic code is one of the best evidences for intelligent design.</i><br /><br />Is it bollocks!<br /><br /><i>It is the best mapping of codons to amino acid in 1.51 * 10^84 possible alternatives.</i><br /><br />No - it's 1 in 10^6 (according to Hurst and Freeland) against random codes, not the best out of all 10^84 possibilities. <br /><br /><i>There is virtually zero chance of of it being the result of some "frozen accident" or the like. </i><br /><br />As I have attempted to draw your attention to elsewhere, if you start with a minimal amino acid set and add acids to it by minimally disruptive means (substitutions are most likely where they are least disruptive), then all the error-tolerant features of the modern code derive, by neutral means, from this expansion. Did you read that paper I linked above?<br /><br /><i>I would teach kids this, and tell that the code is nothing but a direct insight into the mind of God.</i> <br /><br /><i>I am writing a scientific paper that strongly implies this.</i><br /><br />Stay away from my kids! <br /><br />Scientific papers have to do a bit more than "imply"! And when did we start teaching kids unpublished work in science class?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-46633554299018434552011-09-29T06:22:21.779-04:002011-09-29T06:22:21.779-04:00Interesting comment is found here:
http://toddcwo...Interesting comment is found here: <br />http://toddcwood.blogspot.com/2011/09/letter-to-great-britain.html<br />Todd Wood is right on spot.<br /><br />Note the following in that blogpost:<br /><i>The results of their surveys are extremely interesting. Despite millions of dollars for promotion and lots of publicity, the creationist movement seems to have had little to no impact on American opinion. In 1982, 44% of the respondents said that God created humans in their present form, but in 2011, only 40% selected the same response. In contrast, those who identified with response 2, human evolution without God at all, grew from just 9% of respondents in 1982 to 16% in 2011. It seems to me that the American creationist movement has had almost no influence on public opinion, and despite their best efforts, atheism has experienced significant growth</i><br /><br />And the sensible advice:<br /><i>One final piece of advice: One thing that we religious "zealots" have learned is that efforts to stamp out ideas almost pretty much guarantee the spread of those same ideas. Even parents know this.</i>heleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17358426050959144140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-65223213874466247712011-09-28T20:38:06.651-04:002011-09-28T20:38:06.651-04:00Letting the State determine scientific truth is an...Letting the State determine scientific truth is an awful step backwards for democracy, and only opens the door for rulings on historical truth, religious truth, etc.Aqua Buddanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-13733343333756225132011-09-28T19:42:11.970-04:002011-09-28T19:42:11.970-04:00Re Larry Moran
Lots of things count as science b...Re Larry Moran<br /><br /><i><br />Lots of things count as science but aren't falsifiable so that's no reason to eliminate Intelligent Design Creationism.</i><br /><br />Such as? In order for a hypothesis or theory to be considered scientific, it must be possible, in principle, to propose a finding, which is predicted not to occur and is observed or a finding that is predicted to occur and which is not observed. Either constitutes a falsification. <br /><br />As a for instance, the Special Theory of Relativity predicts a phenomena known as time dilation which was not directly observed until some 45 years after Einstein's 1905 paper. The observation was not possible until the invention of the synchrotron which allowed the production of fast muons. It was then found that fast muons had longer lifetimes then slow muons, as predicted by time dilation. If this had not been observed, it would have constituted a falsification of the theory.<br /><br />However, I would note that falsification is a necessary condition but not a sufficient condition.SLCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-64048512413553209202011-09-28T18:57:33.297-04:002011-09-28T18:57:33.297-04:00Allan,
Evolutionism is inherently untestable and ...Allan,<br /><br />Evolutionism is inherently untestable and unfalsifiable. One can imagine and speculate on the origins of anything and everything but avoid having to test your hypothesis - as science demands.<br /><br />The genetic code is one of the best evidences for intelligent design. It is the best mapping of codons to amino acid in 1.51 * 10^84 possible alternatives. There is virtually zero chance of of it being the result of some "frozen accident" or the like. I would teach kids this, and tell that the code is nothing but a direct insight into the mind of God. I am writing a scientific paper that strongly implies this.Atheistoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-7700506856634585502011-09-28T18:49:30.047-04:002011-09-28T18:49:30.047-04:00Yes, we absolutely should teach ID creationism in ...Yes, we absolutely should teach ID creationism in the science class, along with geocentric flat-earth cosmology, astrology, alchemy, and techniques for curing disease by burning a goat on a pyre of perfumed wood.<br />Then, in the little time that's left, we might teach . . uh, I dunno. . .some real science.waldteufelnoreply@blogger.com