tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post732197120674655238..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Learning About Evo-DevoLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-73526783019764376432013-04-03T18:49:01.953-04:002013-04-03T18:49:01.953-04:00I am not a biologist, but is it not the case that ...I am not a biologist, but is it not the case that the ultimate consequence of evodevo is that environmenataly induced changes in phenotype can be selected and inherited? <br /><br />If this was the case, then doesn't it follow that evodevo would bring to the modern sintesis the questioning of the Weismann's principle and the gene as the unit of evolution?Pablo Narthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16320097045041995580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-26784844126250685002013-04-03T04:14:51.584-04:002013-04-03T04:14:51.584-04:00Separate to any benefit accruing to mutators, a pa...Separate to any benefit accruing to mutators, a passive constraint is provided by the mechanism of 'perfection'. Even if the optimum mutation rate was zero, genes could not get there because the mechanism of 'improvement' is mutation. It also starts to cost more, since care takes time. Like near-light-speed travel, the closer you get the harder it becomes.AllanMillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05955231828424156641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-87306642417093805632013-04-03T03:36:49.810-04:002013-04-03T03:36:49.810-04:00Negative Entropy, just to touch on the points you ...Negative Entropy, just to touch on the points you most recently brought up in response:<br /><br />I agree that some theists 'use imaginary beings to fill in the gaps of science'. I don't believe that would be the majority, however. <br />I think there are many theists in the western world with a reasonable education who are comfortable with the idea that science will continue to make extraordinary findings about this universe, and still consider those discoveries strictly contained within the 'magesterium' of the natural world, of which they do not consider god a part. So the conflict isn't there for all theists, although it is there for the bible thumpers, of course.<br />For most theists, and I think this should be true for most atheists as well (despite the best efforts of Richard Dawkins and company), belief in god is neither 'scientific' nor 'unscientifc', but rather 'ascientific' in exactly the way the letter 'a' is used in 'atheism'. Belief in god isn't, for most believers, a theory they are toying around with, consciously or unconsciously. It is something else, and science, by its nature, isn't out to get that which it is, although some atheistic scientists decidedly are.<br />There ARE 'fundamentalist' atheists who wish to drive religious beliefs out of this world. There are many, many more fundamentalist Muslims and Christians who want to force their beliefs on others. In both cases, demonization of ones perceived enemy is part and parcel of the assault.<br /><br />I had similar experiences to you, by the way. But I wouldn't say it was science, per se, that bumped up against my beliefs. Just common sense. I was way too young to have much scientific knowledge, but it was obvious that the stories in the bible were just made up. So, again, I think it is somewhat of an exaggeration, and one which is very much in vogue these days, to say that science is playing any kind of major role in changing theists into atheists. It's generally not the people making the most noise, whether on fundamentalist Christian side, or the 'skeptic' side, who are having the most influence. That's why they need all that noise.andyboergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11159573123843322700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-61020521906525530962013-04-03T02:26:48.954-04:002013-04-03T02:26:48.954-04:00Lutsuite
Yes a prediction that is untestable.... ...Lutsuite<br /><br />Yes a prediction that is untestable.... Where is the edge of our universe? Have we been able to see past it to know that they exist? This is not science, it will never be, and here is why.... It is not observable, it is not testable and it is not repeatable. It is Not science, its metaphysics.Andrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04425470233321200020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-31009897567627262392013-04-03T02:01:30.250-04:002013-04-03T02:01:30.250-04:00Jud
The most ridiculous has to be Dawkins; "...Jud<br /><br />The most ridiculous has to be Dawkins; "Things appear to be designed for a purpose but is in fact not"<br /><br /><br />Andrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04425470233321200020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-89440839945396429922013-04-02T21:38:21.812-04:002013-04-02T21:38:21.812-04:00...and Jud, as for 'irony', my two initial......and Jud, as for 'irony', my two initial responses here were to comments made by Rumraket and Negative Entropy. The discussion had already moved beyond a scientific topic and had Rumraket calling Andre 'hilarious' and 'sad'.<br />So I'm terribly sorry for having lowered the level of discourse.andyboergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11159573123843322700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-5631058650609088572013-04-02T21:35:34.605-04:002013-04-02T21:35:34.605-04:00It is interesting to learn that you think that one...It is interesting to learn that you think that one lacks humility for merely saying they are better now than they were before.<br />I find this rather odd. Are you not better now than you were before, and has some discipline not helped you get there? If not, I feel sad for you.<br />If so, just admit it and be happy about it. I won't consider you to be arrogant for doing so.<br />andyboergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11159573123843322700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-52946621143408802242013-04-02T21:27:39.111-04:002013-04-02T21:27:39.111-04:00for the many who have done the 'long, hard wor...<i>for the many who have done the 'long, hard work' of meditation, reflection, spiritual study and so forth in order to improve ourselves and increase our sense of appreciation and gratitude for our existence, and as a result attained insights that clearly make us better people</i><br /><br />And made you so much more humble, too.<br /><br />Just wondering if all this meditation and self-reflection has sharpened your sense of irony. I mean, seeing as how you're complaining that some people turn everything into a contest between religion and atheism, in yet another in a long series of threads on scientific subjects (in this case the contribution of evo-devo to evolutionary theory) where you've shoehorned in multiple comments about religion versus atheism.judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-30600224077770257462013-04-02T21:07:05.947-04:002013-04-02T21:07:05.947-04:00Just two questions.....
1.) We are unable to see ...<i>Just two questions.....</i><br /><br /><i>1.) We are unable to see outside this universe, how do you or anyone else know that there are other universes other than this one? What evidence is there?</i><br /><br />Read <i>The Inflationary Universe</i> by Alan Guth for an explanation written for a lay audience of how what is known about the development of the early universe implies a multiverse.<br /><br /><i>2.) What does math have to do with non-evidence?</i><br /><br />You're kidding, right? Before the mathematics of relativity, how would Sir Arthur Eddington have known that his observations of Mercury were evidence of light being bent by gravity? Heck, how would he have known to look at Mercury in the first place? Observations become evidence only if there is a hypothesis to prove or disprove, and the hypotheses that provide descriptions of the origins of the universe sufficiently cogent and detailed to prove or disprove are intensely mathematical.<br /><br /><i>Lastly, I have an engineering background.</i><br /><br />What is the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard a non-engineer say about an engineering issue you've been involved with?judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-65063167695687736222013-04-02T20:39:52.750-04:002013-04-02T20:39:52.750-04:00Jud asks, "How fascinating would you find rep... Jud asks, "How fascinating would you find repeated airing of opinions on gardening by a non-gardener? That's the same way disquisitions on "where do the laws come from" strike me when aired by those who've done none of the long, hard work that would make their opinions on these matters valuable and informative to others."<br /><br />Jud, I completely sympathize. Because for the many who have done the 'long, hard work' of meditation, reflection, spiritual study and so forth in order to improve ourselves and increase our sense of appreciation and gratitude for our existence, and as a result attained insights that clearly make us better people, not only in the way we treat others but how we are treated by others, etc. to be told that our way of life is 'deluded' and 'stupid' from people who are sure that we are making it all up, that our beliefs are no different than fear of the dark and dying, that there is a direct line of evolution from throwing people into volcanoes to how we live, to have our beliefs likened to the 'tooth fairy' and 'spooks', to be 'slam-dunked' with 'who designed the designer?', etc. etc., from people whose opinions on these matters are neither valid NOR informative, the feeling that you express is exactly and precisely the same.<br />So I sympathize.andyboergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11159573123843322700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-36468601980212222792013-04-02T17:33:24.422-04:002013-04-02T17:33:24.422-04:00Anyway, to question (1), we do not know that multi...Anyway, to question (1), we do not <i>know</i> that multiverse theory is correct. Rather, it is a prediction of some of the cosmological models of the universe:<br /><br />http://discovermagazine.com/2011/oct/18-out-there-welcome-to-the-multiverse#.UVtNwVfNlS0Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-68877642880293499922013-04-02T17:25:54.745-04:002013-04-02T17:25:54.745-04:00The Salem Hypothesis strikes again....The Salem Hypothesis strikes again....Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-74158969983212282762013-04-02T15:45:29.462-04:002013-04-02T15:45:29.462-04:00Jud
Just two questions.....
1.) We are unable t...Jud<br /><br />Just two questions.....<br /><br />1.) We are unable to see outside this universe, how do you or anyone else know that there are other universes other than this one? What evidence is there?<br /><br />2.) What does math have to do with non-evidence?<br /><br />Lastly, I have an engineering background.<br /><br />Andrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04425470233321200020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-65735100839315206482013-04-02T15:10:55.907-04:002013-04-02T15:10:55.907-04:00Andy gave you some good advice, make the effort an...<i>Andy gave you some good advice, make the effort and do the research yourself, you will learn a few things about just so stories that have being doing the rounds.</i><br /><br />And I responded to Andy that research into the relevant areas (examples being inflation, multiverses, and the part of string theory referred to as "the landscape") are beyond my abilities. Are you saying you are conversant with the mathematics required to perform actual research in these areas, and have found from the math that the research reported in academic journals contains "just so stories"? What specific articles (and please point out the mathematical errors)?judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-41336732147893636332013-04-02T14:26:46.170-04:002013-04-02T14:26:46.170-04:00Jud
Andy gave you some good advice, make the effo...Jud<br /><br />Andy gave you some good advice, make the effort and do the research yourself, you will learn a few things about just so stories that have being doing the rounds.<br />Andrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04425470233321200020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-64284137651723638162013-04-02T13:59:05.468-04:002013-04-02T13:59:05.468-04:00Jud, by all means do the research. And be in awe o...<i>Jud, by all means do the research. And be in awe of it. I don't think all that many people are actually in 'awe' of ignorance, but Douglas Adams does set up a very nice strawman, just the same.</i><br /><br />Sadly, because of a misspent youth (got a law degree), I don't have the math and physics chops to do the research myself. But my point is that I am far, far more interested in hearing from people doing hard work and making serious headway on these issues than I am in hearing from people who have not done the work. How fascinating would you find repeated airing of opinions on gardening by a non-gardener? That's the same way disquisitions on "where do the laws come from" strike me when aired by those who've done none of the long, hard work that would make their opinions on these matters valuable and informative to others.judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-32907278588213892472013-04-02T13:14:01.134-04:002013-04-02T13:14:01.134-04:00All I can say to you "skeptics" keep bel...All I can say to you "skeptics" keep believing in your miracles that dead matter just come alive....... It is really funny that this chance event has not happened again in 4 300 000 000 years, and yet I know someone personally that has won the lotto twice...... But life just poofing magically into existence...... nothing yet, and I won't be holding my breath, life only comes from life....... good luck with your fairy tale.Andrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04425470233321200020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-77729446174950650462013-04-02T10:38:25.107-04:002013-04-02T10:38:25.107-04:00Andy,
I have to say that I have never feared phil...Andy,<br /><br />I have to say that I have never feared philosophy. I used to despise it, because the view we get about philosophy includes, for example, philosophers who take a sophist such as Plantinga seriously at least in terms of having to deal with such an ass-hole. It might be that the exercise of figuring out how the sophism was constructed is part and parcel with being a philosopher, but I am would be much happier if he was regarded for what he is, an ass-hole, and told so, rather than having philosophers writing articles refuting his shit, as if an academic article was necessary. Then there's this stupid idea that some have that philosophy can be done in empty space. But I digress.<br /><br />I don't choose sides, I don't frame my philosophy to match, and I don't use or disregard 'science' as it suits me. Furthermore, note that my position is much more "comfortable" than the theist, and that's at the core, arguably perhaps, of science: I don't use imaginary beings to fill in gaps of knowledge. Theists do. They pretend to pass their imaginary beings for reality. I just don't. Should there be evidence for super beings, then I would consider them. Therefore the atheist and the theist positions are not the same at all.<br /><br />You said to someone else something to the effect of challenging your beliefs. Well, how do you think I got into atheism? I was raised a believer. A Christian. Reality mismatched my beliefs time and again, until the logical conclusion came to me. You might not find science as something that proves gods wrong because the one you seem to believe is much less compromised by anything than the Christian god would be. But sure you would understand that if Genesis is false, then we can conclude easily that the Christian god is false. I know, there's many different versions of the Christian god, but depending on compromise, most of them, if not all, are easily refuted by reality. The same goes for many other gods. I use the Christian one(s) as example because of familiarity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-20920942226031432222013-04-02T09:28:45.719-04:002013-04-02T09:28:45.719-04:00lutesite, your sarcastic answer speaks volumes. Su...lutesite, your sarcastic answer speaks volumes. Surely you don't think that all, or even most, theists want the ten commandments or whatever taught in place of evolution?<br />And yet blogs like this make no distinctions. Anyone who believes in god is equally deluded, and according to someone like steve oberski, equally 'culpable'.<br />An excellent case in point, and not because she is any way exceptional, is my niece. A high school biology teacher. As appalled as you are by the thought of creationism being taught in science classes. Her mom, my sis, works for the diocese, and she herself was married recently in a Catholic church.<br />But there are folks who post here who consider her to be a deluded fool first, and secondly a science teacher on the same side as you in terms of keeping creationism out of science classes. <br />So if you don't know what my comment means, then I can only assume that you haven't considered it fully.andyboergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11159573123843322700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-25086267668510425792013-04-02T09:23:48.661-04:002013-04-02T09:23:48.661-04:00@andyboerger
lutesite, yes, that is an excellent ...@andyboerger<br /><br /><i>lutesite, yes, that is an excellent point. But it does go both ways.</i><br /><br />Really? It goes both ways? I was not aware that there were cabals of scientists attempting to legislatively force Christian churches to teach evolution and Big Bang cosmology instead of the Genesis creation myth. I had no idea. That really must stop. I don't know how I never heard about it.<br />Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-54308810972013794082013-04-02T07:49:16.021-04:002013-04-02T07:49:16.021-04:00@ piotr
"I visit science blogs in order to l...@ piotr<br /><br />"I visit science blogs in order to learn something. IF I were interested in waging a guerrilla war against IDiots, I'd visit their blogs, which I never do. But they come thick and fast here just to try to spoil other people's fun"<br /><br />Creationists infestation of scientific debates and their attempts to derail them is a serious and an infuriating problem. I wish they would be thrown out, not necessarily from the site itself, but from those threads which disseminate valuable scientific information, so those of us who want to learn something can do so without constant incessant disruption.<br /><br />Baseesbasees@bloggspot.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12515738432726111219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-52119789923163333412013-04-02T07:34:32.992-04:002013-04-02T07:34:32.992-04:00So what? In this thread Larry did not even allude ...So what? In this thread Larry did not even allude to religion, theism, ID, creationism or any such topic. It did not stop the f***ing creotard Byers from launching a troll attack half an hour after the first poster, or others from following suit.Piotr GÄ…siorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-71858160297358726552013-04-02T07:26:02.299-04:002013-04-02T07:26:02.299-04:00Piotr, that is too clever by half. You make it sou...Piotr, that is too clever by half. You make it sound as if this is just some 'innocent science blog' without considering its host, Larry Moran. He as you know is every bit as much of a 'militant atheist' as he is a biology professor. He wrote on this very site, a couple months ago, (ironically to Andre) that he always thought that most theists are stupid.<br />He has written that he sees science and religion as being inherently antithetical. He has written that he wants to 'change society' and that he wants to see a 21st century based on reason and science.<br />It is hardly curious that his site would attract opponents to his worldview. You need look no farther than the man himself, and certain fans of his who absolutely hate religion, to wonder why you can't just come here to have a nice chat about genes and mitochondria.<br />andyboergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11159573123843322700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-34981040997613710792013-04-02T07:13:43.149-04:002013-04-02T07:13:43.149-04:00Architecture, music and athletics do not deal with...Architecture, music and athletics do not deal with the history of life on Earth and the origin of humans. Biology does, so it naturally comes under attack by those who used to have the monopoly on explaining where we came from -- conservative religious leaders, biblical literalists, door-to-door preachers (who now seem to prefer virtual doors to real ones, especially if it's raining), etc. They don't care a rat's butt about architecture, music and athletics, but regard life and the place of man in the universe at their turf. I visit science blogs in order to learn something. IF I were interested in waging a guerrilla war against IDiots, I'd visit <b>their</b> blogs, which I never do. But they come thick and fast here just to try to spoil other people's fun. I was looking forward to an interesting discussion in this thread. Instead, I see the usual crap posted by Andre, a Jehovah's Witness on the unfathomable mystery of the rain, and everybody going off at a tangent as a result of the distraction. Jolly good show: discussion wrecked, point scored by IDiots.Piotr GÄ…siorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-35451397862101997922013-04-02T06:55:25.736-04:002013-04-02T06:55:25.736-04:00lutesite, yes, that is an excellent point. But it ...lutesite, yes, that is an excellent point. But it does go both ways.andyboergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11159573123843322700noreply@blogger.com