tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post7230862008816628271..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Nelson Lau responds to my criticism of his comments about junk DNALarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-28013637195385064662017-10-26T01:22:45.535-04:002017-10-26T01:22:45.535-04:00One other bit I forgot...he was denied tenure. One other bit I forgot...he was denied tenure. M3rs33https://www.blogger.com/profile/08108586854471203709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-37314679011649801452017-10-26T01:20:23.781-04:002017-10-26T01:20:23.781-04:00I worked with the guy, as an NSF funded postdoc, o...I worked with the guy, as an NSF funded postdoc, on a joint collaboration. I was initially excited, given his co-discovery of piRNA and use of taxa I used in my PhD. However, it rapidly turned into the most dysfunctional, and bizarre, work relationship I've encountered. He behaved like a child, including a note on a shared break room white board, directed to me, that was so offensive and disturbing to read that someone in the adjacent lab felt the need to modify it, in order to be able to eat her lunch. My offense? A different system of approach to the Keurig machine. He stole my coined phrases and ideas, and presented them as his own in joint lab meetings. And even refused to accept that I was, in fact, extracting from salamander testis, as they were "too big". We actually had to get him into contact with two highly regarded salamander biologists to confirm that, yes, I did know how to identify testis. Oh, he also refused to acknowledge I was competent at lab work, demanding I had not properly shown that the testis RNA was, in fact, actually testis. So, he handed this off to someone else in the lab. I actually redid the assay, we passed it off as hers, and the result was not only accepted this time, but he made sure to include a photo of the gel and point out what great work this other person had done. Anyhow, the guy is not just an idiot. He is not psychologically stable. M3rs33https://www.blogger.com/profile/08108586854471203709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-69601757319976942612016-01-21T14:55:00.459-05:002016-01-21T14:55:00.459-05:00Exactly, Ryan. This is the difference. Saying th...Exactly, Ryan. This is the difference. Saying that the facts to back up Lau's claims are missing from the article is in a completely different universe from saying that Lau is ignorant. <br /><br />But no, I would never teach someone that words can never hurt them, because that's so clearly wrong. I would teach that words can be used as weapons. Most spousal abuse, for instance, is apparently verbal. Many employees are abused verbally by bosses. I would tell teach (1) don't use words to hurt others and (2) stay away from people who insist on using words to hurt others, just like you should stay away from people who insist on using physical violence to intimidate or dominate others. Arlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03243864308260498878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-5032694672390036202016-01-21T10:02:13.693-05:002016-01-21T10:02:13.693-05:00'tis indeed a bizarre mutation. I'm glad t...'tis indeed a bizarre mutation. I'm glad to see it is yet to be fixed 'over there'. AllanMillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05955231828424156641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-17422049085698950492016-01-21T09:15:37.811-05:002016-01-21T09:15:37.811-05:00Going down with a sinking ship, Mikkel?
Moran w...Going down with a sinking ship, Mikkel? <br /><br />Moran whining (i mean waning); young, talented, honest scientists waxing (their new careers and maybe their 2nd hand mercedes).Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246115342112568778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-51653234886489468602016-01-20T10:21:20.429-05:002016-01-20T10:21:20.429-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.hoary puccoonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05784123458643478169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-66931175798384525422016-01-20T10:20:35.983-05:002016-01-20T10:20:35.983-05:00I remember two quotations from my long-ago study i...I remember two quotations from my long-ago study in the sociology of science: <br />From a psychology professor: "Research is not a tea party."<br />From a chemistry doctoral candidate: "He told me I was full of sh*t and I told him he was full of sh*t. And then we went back to the lab to figure out a test to see which of us was right."<br />Not exactly the tone Miss Manners would approve, but it did get the student a PhD from a very well-respected university.hoary puccoonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05784123458643478169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-33749061672887336062016-01-19T18:23:26.300-05:002016-01-19T18:23:26.300-05:00I speak "American English" (US-American)...I speak "American English" (US-American) and I would never say "could care less" when I want to convey that I could<b>n't</b> care less. The phrases have completely opposite meanings. The whole truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219999357041824471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-91191481057043138732016-01-19T16:55:56.202-05:002016-01-19T16:55:56.202-05:00"Could care less" is a colloquialism in ..."Could care less" is a colloquialism in American English. Granted colloquialisms are to be avoided in science writing with a potentially international audience :)Ben Fultonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04858593972149277774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-1242608005941797032016-01-19T16:34:22.511-05:002016-01-19T16:34:22.511-05:00I'm not doubting any of that, Arlin. But that...I'm not doubting any of that, Arlin. But that clearly was not the case here, or Lau would have mentioned that in his letter to Larry. Unless his PR dept wrote that, as well....Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-56861630670640353452016-01-19T15:06:46.276-05:002016-01-19T15:06:46.276-05:00You have obviously received lots of "ad homin...You have obviously received lots of "ad hominem" attacks throughout your career. Would you have such a fuss if Larry had stated Lau had no facts to bolster his claim, instead of using the word "ignorant"? Hopefully you teach those kids "sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01447429966683914273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-21545248071792526862016-01-19T14:33:51.189-05:002016-01-19T14:33:51.189-05:00OMG, have you ever had a press release? PR write...OMG, have you ever had a press release? PR writers and magazine writers are not working for you. They work for their university or publisher. They do not have any legal requirement to get your final approval in order to write something about what you have released to them. And they will mangle your English worse than any scientific editor. I suppose you could raise a stink and go through endless rounds of revision with the PR person, but usually these things are done at the last minute and you have limited chances for input. Arlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03243864308260498878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-62308615781297121962016-01-19T14:27:57.357-05:002016-01-19T14:27:57.357-05:00Georgi, that statement belongs in a discussion of ...Georgi, that statement belongs in a discussion of sociological or educational research about lack of knowledge, not in a discussion of junk DNA. Let us suppose that Smith and Jones conduct a research project to determine what fraction of Americans don't know the name of Canada's prime minister, and what fraction of Canadians don't know the US president. They could title their study "Unequal ignorance of the heads of neighboring states: a comparison of US and Canada" . But if Smith and Jones get into an argument with each other about how to interpret the results, and Smith says that Jones is "ignorant", then this is a personal remark. Arlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03243864308260498878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-9270152509306329132016-01-19T14:19:35.455-05:002016-01-19T14:19:35.455-05:00Sorry, a small clarification on that-- there is on...Sorry, a small clarification on that-- there is one area in which I and many others make the decision to continue associating with people who have attacked us personally, and that is family. If that isn't clear, have a child and wait about 13 years and you'll know what I'm saying. Eventually they grow out of it. Arlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03243864308260498878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-35226079435351181812016-01-19T14:16:44.122-05:002016-01-19T14:16:44.122-05:00Ryan, I doubt that we are talking about the same t...Ryan, I doubt that we are talking about the same things here, because what you are writing here is so far off I don't know what to call it. If there is something about what I wrote that leads you to conclude that I am new to science, then your reasoning must be flawed, because I am not new to science. I didn't say anything about hurt feelings. I didn't say that personal attacks should be carried out in private rather than in public. The argument that personal attacks are inevitable, therefore we should "grow up" and prepare for them is certainly not the way that I live. I don't work with or associate with people who attack me personally. If they did, I would stop interacting with them. <br /><br />If you are saying that ad hominem arguments are good for science, I could not agree less. Just how would avoiding ad hominem arguments turn into a "BIG" problem with scientific communication? Arlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03243864308260498878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-81758704518973243142016-01-19T11:19:08.440-05:002016-01-19T11:19:08.440-05:00Arlin, I think at this point parsing meanings of t...Arlin, I think at this point parsing meanings of the adjective "ignorant" is not terribly useful. I think we can agree Dr. Lau was not meant to feel happy or complimented upon reading what Dr. Moran wrote. I think we can agree Dr. Moran's technique is one some of us would choose and some would not; and that some feel is the best way to get results and others feel is counter-productive. (Cf. coaching sports or other pedagogical pursuits.) I tend to think one catches more flies with honey than vinegar, but that's just me.judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-58372168649132649672016-01-19T10:11:48.143-05:002016-01-19T10:11:48.143-05:00I see that a few weeks ago, Brandeis University tw...I see that a few weeks ago, Brandeis University tweeted: <a href="https://twitter.com/BrandeisU/status/677246962895319040" rel="nofollow">Two recent studies on junk DNA by #Brandeis scientist Nelson Lau</a><br /><br />What a joke! The studies don't even mention junk DNA.<br /><br />It's almost as if their marketing department asked: What's that science buzz word going around again? Junk DNA? Yeah, let's throw that in there!Aceofspadeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09534611408824723712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-60060991017984487432016-01-19T10:03:08.538-05:002016-01-19T10:03:08.538-05:00Fair enough. I got the impression from his letter ...Fair enough. I got the impression from his letter that he was some junior professor still finding his feet.Aceofspadeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09534611408824723712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-29208322684121360452016-01-19T09:44:07.115-05:002016-01-19T09:44:07.115-05:00Though we're mostly focusing on Larry's su...Though we're mostly focusing on Larry's supposedly "personal attacks" against Lau, what I find more bizarre about Lau's statement is his insistence that Larry's response should have been made privately. Lau's Q&A was published as a <i>public document</i>, meant for a general audience. Why would it not be proper for any response to also be made publicly? Shouldn't he at least be pleased that his work has gained the attention of other bloggers and therefore was disseminated to a larger audience? If Larry or Dan Graur had positive remarks to make, would Lau also demand that these be made in private?Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-11180541957404147252016-01-19T08:51:54.062-05:002016-01-19T08:51:54.062-05:00Where does the statement "X percentage of peo...Where does the statement "X percentage of people in group Y are ignorant about subject Z" fall in that classification?Georgi Marinovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12226357993389417752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-80087832063142866022016-01-19T08:45:11.302-05:002016-01-19T08:45:11.302-05:00A couple of my comments showed up twice, so I dele...A couple of my comments showed up twice, so I deleted them. The whole truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219999357041824471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-84609492810357050522016-01-19T08:42:24.412-05:002016-01-19T08:42:24.412-05:00OK, lutesuite, this is the last time I'm going...OK, lutesuite, this is the last time I'm going to explain. A personal remark is a remark about a person, whether it seems to be justified or not. Personal remarks are discouraged or prohibited in polite debate (e.g., the prohibition in Robert's Rules of Order), because they become indistinguishable from ad hominem arguments and are not necessary. If we were to call in an international panel of scientists to weigh the evidence for and against junk DNA, "whether Nelson Lau is ignorant" would not be part of the debate. It is irrelevant to the question, just like Dr. Lau's age, gender, weight, etc are irrelevant to the question of junk DNA. Larry's post was not entirely about junk DNA, but also about Lau. It was about Lau because it was full of these personal characterizations, and this made Larry's post difficult to distinguish from an ad hominem attack on Lau. <br /><br />If you want to make personal characterizations, go ahead. Apparently you feel that it is justified to call people ignorant, rather than just sticking to scientific questions. I'm just explaining why some of us don't feel that way. Arlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03243864308260498878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-27652020512523864282016-01-19T08:15:22.722-05:002016-01-19T08:15:22.722-05:00Lau is an assistant professor of biology at a univ...Lau is an assistant professor of biology at a university, and he obviously wants tenure. He has a B.S. from State University of New York, Albany, and a Ph.D. from Massachusetts Institute of Technology. <br /><br />He has a lab with his name on it: "The Lau Lab at Brandeis University". He has high requirements for anyone who joins or visits his lab. He works with/teaches/supervises members of his lab. There are a bunch of other professors in the life sciences (biology/bio-chemistry) department at Brandeis University. I'm pretty sure that State University, MIT, and Brandeis each have a library and plenty of access to computers that are connected to the internet. I think it's also safe to say that Lau has a home computer, a cell phone, and a tablet or two that are also connected to the internet and that, based on his apparent age, he has had access to the internet for most of his life. <br /><br />Considering the years he spent as a student in colleges, and as an assistant professor at Brandeis working with/teaching/supervising members of his lab, and working with/associating with other professors at Brandeis and elsewhere, and authoring/co-authoring/publishing papers, and having access to libraries and the internet, and probably attending at least some scientific conferences, and that he has opinions about junk DNA, it's hard for me to believe, to put it mildly, that "Perhaps the facts have never been pointed out to him" or that he didn't or couldn't have found them on his own. <br /><br />http://www.bio.brandeis.edu/faculty/lau.html<br /><br />http://www.bio.brandeis.edu/laulab/Lab_members.html<br /><br />http://www.bio.brandeis.edu/faculty/list_lastname.html<br /><br />http://www.bio.brandeis.edu/laulab/Pubs_protocols.html<br /><br />http://www.bio.brandeis.edu/laulab/Join_thelab.html<br />The whole truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219999357041824471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-8841195000317753492016-01-19T06:18:54.670-05:002016-01-19T06:18:54.670-05:00And if there are rogue PR workers who twist and mi...And if there <i>are</i> rogue PR workers who twist and misrepresent the words of scientists, it would be auseful deterrent if they know there are other scientists who will publicly shame them, rather than discreetly correct them by private email.Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-85044990008007052202016-01-19T04:43:47.960-05:002016-01-19T04:43:47.960-05:00I gree, you have said more than enough. I gree, you have said more than enough. Mikkel Rumraket Rasmussenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07670550711237457368noreply@blogger.com