tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post5039142108518929254..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Do Graduate Students Understand Evolution?Larry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-33756319011610443292009-10-07T02:36:44.587-04:002009-10-07T02:36:44.587-04:00@Dave Wisker: Me three?
psi dot wavefunction at g...@Dave Wisker: Me three?<br /><br />psi dot wavefunction at gmail.com<br /><br />Thanks! =D<br /><br />---<br />Yeah, I definitely ain't learning too much in my undergrad, except for a couple small atypical classes. Although those tend to assume you understand the fundamentals, which taught in the massive cram orgies, thereby precluding you from properly understanding anything else. Sometimes I wonder if I'd have learned a lot more just by sitting at home with the institutional subscription access... besides, you have to relearn everything when you actually have to apply it in real lab/research context anyway.Psi Wavefunctionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10829712736757471647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-30255285038478491782009-10-06T12:36:44.773-04:002009-10-06T12:36:44.773-04:00Could I get a copy too? My e-mail is kelecable@gma...Could I get a copy too? My e-mail is kelecable@gmail.com. Thanks!Kelenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-17711188502994486952009-10-06T11:26:00.515-04:002009-10-06T11:26:00.515-04:00nomes asked:
Dave Wisker, can you share the syll...nomes asked: <br /><br /><i>Dave Wisker, can you share the syllabus for your seminar with us? Or e-mail me: noaman.ali@gmail.com. Much appreciated.<br /><br /></i><br /><br />It's on a flashdrive at home. I'll email it to you.Dave Wiskernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-26890403057562159062009-10-06T01:54:27.498-04:002009-10-06T01:54:27.498-04:00the bulk of my knowledge of evolution is due to my...<i>the bulk of my knowledge of evolution is due to my reading books, blogs and sites like Talk.Origins</i><br /><br />talk.origins is not a site, it's a Usenet newsgroup. <br /><br />Your experience is 100% normal. Normal as in "common". Modern universities basically don't educate - they certify. "Better" universities are only better because they are able to get better students - the students that are attracted to their "betterness" and the prestige the future employers assign to the "better" universities' education.<br /><br />Apart from that, any Ohio State campus is no worse than Harvard ("real" education-wise). Frequently, better - because large proportion of faculty gives a shit about educating undergrads.DKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-25393103214572794902009-10-06T01:51:31.841-04:002009-10-06T01:51:31.841-04:00Dave Wisker, can you share the syllabus for your s...Dave Wisker, can you share the syllabus for your seminar with us? Or e-mail me: noaman.ali@gmail.com. Much appreciated.Noaman G. Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629642220928069120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-29945507274080544442009-10-06T01:19:36.094-04:002009-10-06T01:19:36.094-04:00Nomes said: The point in undergraduate education w...Nomes said: <i>The point in undergraduate education wasn't to examine how certain examples illustrated really important fundamental concepts, at least, that wasn't stressed. Rather, it was a game where being able to memorize and regurgitate could get you all you needed. It's not a surprise, then, that although I aced the most significant and introductory courses in biology, I had to go back to Talk.Origins several times in my senior years of undergrad to get a better understanding of evolutionary theory; and getting that better understanding of evolutionary theory had nothing to do with the courses I was taking.</i><br /><br />I'm in the same boat. I'm a college junior and I would say the bulk of my knowledge of evolution is due to my reading books, blogs and sites like Talk.Origins on my own time. I've been reading all about drift and its importance to evolution and it's because I'm just curious; I certainly haven't learned about it in my coursework. It certainly doesn't help that the evolution course here has only been taught once so far in my three years here.Kelenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-30429545674296870902009-10-06T01:01:44.515-04:002009-10-06T01:01:44.515-04:00"I blame undergraduate education for too much..."I blame undergraduate education for too much focus on mechanistic detail and not enough focus on broad fundamental concepts."<br /><br />Wow, I'm a high school teacher and I make the same point at this level. I have a large proportion of students in grade 10[!] who could not list, let alone explain, Newton's Laws. <br /><br />This is true of most curricula I have seen. IB, AP, Ontario....Linzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01514267602859699974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-89582415428197259012009-10-05T20:22:57.374-04:002009-10-05T20:22:57.374-04:00How many scientists understand the difference betw...<i>How many scientists understand the difference between "similarity" and "homology" when referring to DNA sequences?</i><br /><br />I'd say, nearly everyone! Once you explain the prevaling meaning of the terms, that is. Not a rocket science! <br /><br />But since you touched upon it, I'll comment. Beyond the simplicity to conform to definitions, there is a problem of tautology here: How do we unveil homology? - As a rule, based on similarity! So in too many cases the whole thing becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy...DKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-28347452515589325312009-10-05T12:21:21.256-04:002009-10-05T12:21:21.256-04:00I put together a 1-hour/week graduate seminar cour...I put together a 1-hour/week graduate seminar course that looked at some classic papers in evolution. I tried to select papers that illustrated basic principles, but also tried to include ones that corrected misperceptions (Gould and Lewontin's "Spandrels" paper, for example). <br /><br />We would read one paper each week and discuss it during class time. Several of my fellow grad students said it changed their thinking about evolution.Dave Wiskernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-37950536848847173582009-10-05T10:53:01.159-04:002009-10-05T10:53:01.159-04:00I agree with Anonymous's comment on undergradu...I agree with Anonymous's comment on undergraduate education focusing more on mechanistic detail than broad fundamental concepts. The point in undergraduate education wasn't to examine how certain examples illustrated really important fundamental concepts, at least, that wasn't stressed. Rather, it was a game where being able to memorize and regurgitate could get you all you needed. It's not a surprise, then, that although I aced the most significant and introductory courses in biology, I had to go back to Talk.Origins several times in my senior years of undergrad to get a better understanding of evolutionary theory; and getting that better understanding of evolutionary theory had nothing to do with the courses I was taking.Noaman G. Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10629642220928069120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-8585540439117433772009-10-05T04:55:43.385-04:002009-10-05T04:55:43.385-04:00To be quite honest, I don't think that any dis...<i>To be quite honest, I don't think that any discipline would fare any differently than evolution if you were to take a poll of random grad students in that particular field.</i><br /><br />That's a very accurate observation. <br /><br />And it naturally leads to what I was going to say even before I read your post. <br /><br />The ignorance about basic concepts of evolutionary biology among both professors who don't work directly in the field and graduate students is a problem but is a derivative of much deeper and more fundamental problems with the way our educational system and universities are set up. And I realize this is a pet peeve of mine, but you can blame all pf that on the all-pervasive anti-intellectualism in modern academia, one of the most prominent manifestations of which is the common education-as-a-preparation-for-the-workforce attitude towards both teaching and learning. With proper understanding of evolution being one of the least directly applicable things one can learn in a biology program it is not surprising that it is not on the top of the priority list of things to learn for most people. <br /><br />But again, that's only a consequence of most people thinking that they only need to learn what they "need to know" and the fact (OK, it's not a fact because there is not hard data, but there is little doubt what the results will be of a study on that) that it applies not only to evolution speaks volumes. If there is absolutely no incentive and no selection for people who have broad interests and natural curiosity and desire to learn, it is no surprise that you end up with people, even at the highest level who only know what is directly relevant to their narrow area of specialization...Georgi Marinovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12226357993389417752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-88272047228564585622009-10-04T18:50:24.141-04:002009-10-04T18:50:24.141-04:00To be quite honest, I don't think that any dis...To be quite honest, I don't think that any discipline would fare any differently than evolution if you were to take a poll of random grad students in that particular field. As a recent graduand, I can now admit that I was personally very disenchanted with grad school and the general quality of its students. It depressed me to note how many people were there simply because they 'didn't know what they wanted to do with their lives'. In my experience, profs constantly lament how students don't apply themselves, but on the flipside, no one is ever fired (no matter how incompetent) and many supervisors just aren't good managers (and admittedly, they're never trained to be).<br /><br />I don't want to lump everyone into a single bucket, but many of the students that I met during my training did little more than the minimum amount of effort required to get by. Those who actually worked their asses off stood out, got good postdocs, and are continuing on. It's not like admission to grad school is particularly restrictive, so I'm not sure why any of this would be shocking to anyone.<br /><br />Finally, I should note that my own experiences may not be the 'norm', but that's what I observed.Carlohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00153076425887492166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-38357387521411729812009-10-04T18:19:49.119-04:002009-10-04T18:19:49.119-04:00The misuse of "homology" for "simil...The misuse of "homology" for "similarity" is a pet peeve of mine. It's embarrassing that I have to explicitly spell this out for our second year graduate students in molecular biology since they should have learned this long ago. I blame undergraduate education for too much focus on mechanistic detail and not enough focus on broad fundamental concepts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-5568947765348597502009-10-04T18:19:30.627-04:002009-10-04T18:19:30.627-04:00Also to think a number of biochemistry/biophysics ...Also to think a number of biochemistry/biophysics departments I know actively encourage those with chemistry, physics, or computer science backgrounds to apply. When they come in they do some catch up but usually it is taking a year-long biochemistry course. What grad courses do they take? Adv. biochemistry, biophysics, technique courses, etc. In the end they will have an advanced degree in a biological science without any sort of training in evolution.PonderingFoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10767758746935185528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-63258971831208245042009-10-04T15:46:15.629-04:002009-10-04T15:46:15.629-04:00SLC says,
I'm not quite clear as to what Prof...SLC says,<br /><br /><i>I'm not quite clear as to what Prof. Moran means by his assertion that many biologists have a flawed view of evolution. </i><br><br>Let's first take a simple example that illustrates the problem even though it's not fundamental to understanding evolution.<br /><br />How many scientists understand the difference between "similarity" and "homology" when referring to DNA sequences? <br /><br />If you still don't get it, then ask as many colleagues as possible whether they've ever used the term "lower organism." If so, get them to explain what they meant.<br /><br />If that doesn't convince you, then ask them to explain punctuated equilibria. <br /><br />Finally, ask them to think of a phylogenetic tree based on sequence similarity. Then ask them what mechanism of evolution is likely to be responsible for most of those changes.<br><br>Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-8979758953497450522009-10-04T14:23:26.852-04:002009-10-04T14:23:26.852-04:00I'm not quite clear as to what Prof. Moran mea...I'm not quite clear as to what Prof. Moran means by his assertion that many biologists have a flawed view of evolution. As I stated on a previous thread, I am reading Jerry Coynes' book, "Why Evolution is True," and it appears to me that he and Prof. Moran are at considerable odds as to the relative importance of genetic drift vs natural selection as the mechanism for evolution. Prof. Coyne appears to give very shrift indeed to genetic drift. However, as an outsider, perhaps I am reading something into this apparent issue that is really not there.SLCnoreply@blogger.com