tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post4760729509981418597..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: The problem of anonymity on the internetLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-18452982574279152412014-02-03T23:52:17.065-05:002014-02-03T23:52:17.065-05:00I use a pseudonym, even though it is easy to find ...I use a pseudonym, even though it is easy to find out who I am. The evidence and logic I bring to a debate should be what matters, not my identity.<br /><br />If I were a tenured department chair, would that make my points any more credible? Credibility comes from the quality of evidence cited and from the ability to valid points.<br /><br />A tenured department chair can be a complete idiot, while an anonymous blogger can present an excellent case. If I need to know who is writing to be decide if an argument is valid, then that is a criticism of my lack of ability to understand. <br /><br />I work in EMS, where few people have any interest in evidence, or reasoned debate, but that is changing for the better. Many EMS organizations have rules prohibiting blogging by employees. <br /><br />I do not think that an employer's misguided rules should be used to taint a blogger's work. Some bloggers need anonymity to protect low-paying jobs. Should we pretend that they have nothing important to state? How limited do we want the knowledge of the people who care for us in emergencies to be?<br /><br />I will continue to write under a pseudonym. It is the least I can do to support those who <i>must</i> write under a pseudonym.<br /><br />We should not allow the misbehavior of some pseudonymous bloggers to bias us against all pseudonymous bloggers any more than we should adopt any other stereotype.<br /><br /><b>Using tradition, power, and ad hominem to limit debate to the usual suspects is antithetical to progress.</b><br /><br />.Rogue Medichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07598646309630074992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-35708495379584013022014-01-24T20:11:50.531-05:002014-01-24T20:11:50.531-05:00I've been writing online under my own name for...I've been writing online under my own name for about twelve years, which a lot of pseudonymous harassers and stalkers exploit to try to destroy my ability to write on or offline. Pseudonymity has been a disaster for me, so I have a hard time seeing it as all or mostly beneficent.Ophelia Bensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08000353980872079468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-7866142776018748332014-01-23T22:52:11.483-05:002014-01-23T22:52:11.483-05:00I'm not a scientist so I don't (or try not...I'm not a scientist so I don't (or try not) comment on technical scientific issues in biochemistry or other scientific disciplines. If I did I would think using my full name would be appropriate. I mostly comment on general issues of atheism vs. religion and there I am handicapped by the fact that most of my family are religious of the fundamentalist-evangelical type, and if they were to google my name and find my comments I might not see much of them or my nephews and nieces again. Maybe that is paranoia on my part, but it can be seen here that arguments between atheists and fundamentalists often get very acrimonious.<br /><br />There is a solution of course to both not comment here in a way that is annoying to my host, and not run any risks of offending my relatives and I think I will try that solution.JimVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10198704789965278981noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-21893760686151311992014-01-23T14:39:38.832-05:002014-01-23T14:39:38.832-05:00Diogenes says,
Larry: "there's still som...Diogenes says,<br /><br /><i>Larry: "there's still something about hiding behind a pseudonym that makes me uneasy"<br /><br />Poor Larry. It makes him feel bad. There's his evidence of a social benefit from nobody having pseudonyms. He would feel better.</i><br /><br />Excuse me for being honest. Am I the only person in the world who thinks that insulting people while hiding your identity is bad?<br /><br /><i>Hello, who sent you and why are you training a laser sight on my forehead? Larry Moran sent you?...<br /><br />*gasp* curse you Larry Moran *cough* *gasp* *death rattle*</i><br /><br />I'm sorry you feel that way. I guess I've given the wrong impression on my blog because turning you in to the police or government is not something I would ever do under any circumstances. One of the easiest ways to get instantly banned from <i>Sandwalk</i> is to write to my employers. That's despicable.<br /><br />Do you enjoy making these accusations knowing that you will never have to own up to them? Would you do it if we knew your true identity? <br /><br />This is what makes me uneasy. I think it's cowardly. Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-28596674901289268092014-01-23T14:21:47.314-05:002014-01-23T14:21:47.314-05:00Re Lawrence A. Moran
Sorry for the confusion but ...Re Lawrence A. Moran<br /><br />Sorry for the confusion but you have to bear some responsibility for it. When you started requiring a reply using a recognized email service, Verizon's was not on the list. Therefore, in order to comment on your blog, I had to open an account on one of the recognized ones. I chose Google's email service which was free and easy to sign up to. After some cogitation, I decided to change the moniker I was using before and chose colnago80, being as how I own a 1980 model Colnago Superissimo professional racing bicycle. Actually, although it was professional when I purchased it 30+ years ago, it is now obsolete and belongs in a museum, not in the peleton.colnago80https://www.blogger.com/profile/02640567775340860582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-7592744884927577632014-01-23T14:17:22.013-05:002014-01-23T14:17:22.013-05:00Arlin says,
Second opinion has a valid point. Eve...Arlin says,<br /><br /><i>Second opinion has a valid point. Everyone who reads this blog knows that Larry calls the people who hold a certain position "IDiots". Sarcasm and scorn are not very welcoming. Larry, this is reality: your online demeanor is not welcoming to people who disagree with you.</i><br /><br />There are all kinds of people who disagree with me. Some of them are IDiots and deserve to be mocked because their ideas really are quite stupid. I explain to my students that debate in the real world uses all kinds of tools—it's not the polite Oxford common room out there.<br /><br />I also explain to my students that they need to learn these tools and techniques if they are really going to make a difference in the world. I encourage them to debate with me and with their fellow students but I warn them that I'm not going coddle them or tie one hand behind my back so they have a better chance at winning.<br /><br />I also explain to them that their essay grade will not suffer if they choose to defend a position that I disagree with. I'm pretty sure about that after twenty years of experience and over one hundred essays that took contrary opinions. <br /><br />"Second opinion" implied that I was lying to my students and that they would suffer if they disagreed with me. That's really insulting. <br /><br />There are lots of people other than IDiots who disagree with me, including you, Arlin. You don't all get treated the same way as long as you make logical arguments and back them up with evidence. Many of you have changed my mind. <br /><br />Besides, if my style is so intimidating, why do the IDiots keep coming back for more? You'd think they would avoid this place like the plague. :-) <br /><br /><i>Some people enjoy that in an online forum, because it isn't real for them: other people are intimidated precisely because the emotional language is real for them.</i><br /><br />No problem. There are lots of other blogs and forums where they can hang out and be really polite to one another. I'd be interested in knowing whether you think there's free and open discussion of controversial issues on those sites. <br /><br /><i>Perhaps your classroom demeanor is totally different. But if your classroom demeanor is like your online demeanor, then I doubt that you are having open discussions in your classroom.</i><br /><br />I don't think my classroom demeanor is very different than what you see on my blog. What's different is that I choose different topics to discuss in class so that there's more opportunity for debate. I also try to get students talking to each other as much as possible. <br /><br />I agree that it's very hard to encourage open discussion in the classroom. I'm not sure you can do it without ruffling some feathers. <br />Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-58952251357943536702014-01-23T14:09:44.452-05:002014-01-23T14:09:44.452-05:00Re Diogenes
Michael Egnor, Jonathan Sarfati and D...Re Diogenes<br /><br /><i>Michael Egnor, Jonathan Sarfati and David Klinghoffer are all people whose real names we know, and they are the least nice people on the internet or indeed, in the English speaking world</i>.<br /><br />You apparently not encountered Robert O'Brien, a teacher of statistics in a community college in California. He has been given the heave ho on a number of blogs for being an obnoxious poopyhead. He makes the three individuals you named look like Casper Milquetoast. <br /><br />colnago80https://www.blogger.com/profile/02640567775340860582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-21008444946621495272014-01-23T13:09:00.911-05:002014-01-23T13:09:00.911-05:00Larry to me: BTW, why do you hide behind a pseudon...Larry to me: <i>BTW, why do you hide behind a pseudonym?</i><br /><br />Well, <i>Larry,</i> I've been on the run from the CIA ever since I leaked those classified government documents. <br /><br />But since you don't want me to "hide" from you, you can find me here at Suite 312 in the Holiday Inn in Boulder, Colorado. Please keep that just between us.<br /><br />Hey cool, out my window there some guys sliding down ropes from a helicopter. <br /><br />Now, another advantage of using a pseudonym is-- excuse me, there's a knock at the door. <br /><br />Hello, who sent you and why are you training a laser sight on my forehead? <i>Larry Moran sent you?</i><br /><br />Now wait, don't shoot, I'm sorry I exposed the government conspiracy-- I-- <br /><br />No! NOOOO! <i>AARRGH!</i><br /><br /><i>Still typing... darkness spreading... lights dimming... </i> <br /><br />*gasp* <i>curse you Larry Moran</i> *cough* *gasp* *death rattle*Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-12852923382222707162014-01-23T13:01:38.128-05:002014-01-23T13:01:38.128-05:00Larry, some of your arguments are true but irrelev...Larry, some of your arguments are true but irrelevant, whereas others are neither true nor relevant.<br /><br />Larry: <i>"We've had people commenting here on Sandwalk who have hidden agendas."</i><br /><br />True but not relevant. It's always, <i>always</i> obvious to us within 1 or 2 comments that someone is posing as an alleged "neutral observer" or "just curious" or one of the the finite, limited kinds of concern troll. We always detect concern trolls within 1 or 2 comments. Nobody can really pretend to be a "neutral observer", no matter whether it's a real or fake name.<br /><br /><i>"They try to disguise their identify by using a pseudonym."</i> <br /><br />No, they try to disguise their agenda by pretending to be "neutral observers" or "just curious", which is a perpendicular question to their name, fake or not.<br /><br /><i>"Often they are not very nice people."</i><br /><br />True but irrelevant. Michael Egnor, Jonathan Sarfati and David Klinghoffer are all people <b>whose real names we know</b>, and they are the least nice people on the internet or indeed, in the English speaking world. Knowing their names does not make them nice. They are actually meaner and more obnoxious than the pseudonymous trolls we get around here.<br /><br /><i>"We've had people who comment under a variety of different names."</i> <br /><br />True but irrelevant. You're conflating sock puppetry with pseudonymity. <br />Moreover, <b>a person who employs sock puppetry will not hesitate to create the illusion of a seemingly "real name."</b> <br /><br />These idiots will not hesitate to use their mom's or wife's email account. I'll give a real example of this below.<br /><br />The number of pseudonymous commenters is larger than the number of sock puppets. You can't stop liars from lying.<br /><br /><i>"We've had people who issue real threats."</i><br /><br />True, and you have correctly banned those who do. But what is to stop people from issuing threats under a real name, a fake illusion of a "real name", or from the email account of his mom or wife?<br /><br />Remember that PZ Myers got a death threat from a guy who used the work email account of his wife, who worked for 1-800-FLOWERS. What good was a "real name"?<br />Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-67268146033488753432014-01-23T12:49:57.840-05:002014-01-23T12:49:57.840-05:00I must also mention that this argument, attacking ...I must also mention that this argument, attacking credentials, has been used by Piotr's opponents on this very blog. Right here idiots have dismissed biological facts that were accurately presented by Piotr on the grounds that Piotr is, wait for it, a <i>linguist</i>.<br /><br />@Allan: Yeah, I don't recall exactly but I think it was VJ Torley at UD who googled the number of patents that Mark Chu-Carroll (an engineer) had in order to dismiss MCC's irrefutable demolition of Dembski's pseudomath.<br /><br />Do any of us give a crap whether anybody is a "linguist" or a, gasp, sports physiologist? I've yet to see Piotr present any facts about biology that are inaccurate. Recently he corrected me about <i>Xenopus</i> not being a tree frog-- I got it confused with <i>Hyla</i>-- I don't give a crap whether somebody is a linguist or a sports physiologist, we need people correcting us.<br />Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-53404245578611633502014-01-23T12:41:37.030-05:002014-01-23T12:41:37.030-05:00Second Opinion: "If you can't demonstrate...Second Opinion: <i>"If you can't demonstrate that there is a net benefit of banning people from publishing under a pseudonym it should not be banned, like if you can't demonstrate that there is a net benefit of banning gay people from getting married it should not be banned."</i><br /><br />Yeah, Larry has two standards of evidence, one for him and one for us.<br /><br />Here's Larry's evidence for the huge social benefits of nobody having pseudonyms. Wait for it, here it comes, he's got a mountain of evidence.<br /><br />Larry: <i>"there's still something about hiding behind a pseudonym that makes me uneasy"</i><br /><br />Poor Larry. It makes him <i>feel bad</i>. There's his evidence of a social benefit from nobody having pseudonyms. He would feel better.<br /><br />We can thus reply simply that using pseudonyms makes us feel good. It's <i>fun</i>. That's all. We do not have to prove a social benefit for carousels or roller coasters or Angry Birds.<br /><br />Then our evidence of "social benefit" is equal to his.<br />Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-58794611981054566682014-01-23T12:14:53.415-05:002014-01-23T12:14:53.415-05:00Actually, are you saying that if I signed this Ant...<i>Actually, are you saying that if I signed this Anthony R Smith, you would believe I was Anthony R Smith?</i><br /><br />Yes. especially if I activate authentication where you have to enter your email address. But really, the fact that some people might fake an identity that looks like a real name is not a very good argument. Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-79892060331830791382014-01-23T12:11:16.839-05:002014-01-23T12:11:16.839-05:00Georgi Marinov says,
It's a catch 22 of which...Georgi Marinov says,<br /><br /><i>It's a catch 22 of which I see no way out other than transforming society from what have now into one in which arguments and views are judged based on their intellectual merits while petty politics and tribalism are relegated to the dustbin of history. But that's a transition that's itself made almost impossible by that very same problem...</i><br /><br />Exactly. The short term goal is obvious but what are the long-term consequences of encouraging anonymity (and pseudonymity)?Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-3075318288657040442014-01-23T12:04:59.170-05:002014-01-23T12:04:59.170-05:00I didn't realize that you were SLC. That's...I didn't realize that you were SLC. That's confusing.Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-48535007917493477812014-01-23T11:42:46.614-05:002014-01-23T11:42:46.614-05:00Actually, are you saying that if I signed this An...Actually, are you saying that if I signed this Anthony R Smith, you would believe I was Anthony R Smith? I do find it interesting that I have to have an account somewhere with a name attached to it... Of course, I could have any other name and still create an account there. Either you're taking the commenter's word that they are the name they attached to it, or you're assuming everyone is a liar. I've learned the hard way that, to an extent, you can be "anyone" you want to be on the internet... Hope Demainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04745019755383306183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-20172463668032594962014-01-23T11:07:46.663-05:002014-01-23T11:07:46.663-05:00I make no apologies for commenting using a moniker...I make no apologies for commenting using a moniker. I also don't hide the fact that I once commented using the moniker SLC, on a Verizon account but now comment using the moniker colnago80 using a gmail account. I appreciate the fact that Prof. Moran has, so far, raised no objections to this practice (i.e. he hasn't given me the heave ho). colnago80https://www.blogger.com/profile/02640567775340860582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-62795112699288355932014-01-23T10:33:53.254-05:002014-01-23T10:33:53.254-05:00Many of the blogs I read and people I follow on tw...Many of the blogs I read and people I follow on twitter are trans women or men. Some of them write under their given or adopted names, and some write under pseudonyms. Much of their writing concerns both recording and denouncing the discrimination and violence they face on a daily basis. Providing their 'real' identities on the internet considerably magnifies this very real danger to themselves. <br /><br />In their case, silence will only perpetrate the violence, and pseudonymous posting is the only practical solution for them. I too would like to live in a world where people's writing was judged on the quality of their work, and there we no repercussions to be faced. However, we are a long way fro m being there yet.<br /><br />In my case, I began blogging and commenting under a pseudonym because I wanted to write about my own experiences with mental illness and some of the problems we face. At the time I wasn't sure I was strong enough to face any personal fallout. As I continued and my health improved, I continued with the pseudonym, but when possible with a link to my blog, where my "Who am I" page lists the name my parents gave me. <br /><br />peicurmudgeon aka John UnderhayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-66821446548361981542014-01-23T09:40:22.660-05:002014-01-23T09:40:22.660-05:00Wait, this is a real issue! Let's not let the...Wait, this is a real issue! Let's not let the mis-steps and over-the-top rhetoric obscure this issue! Larry, you put the argument on a personal level in your original comments-- invoking your own experience and authority and putting yourself out there as an exemplar-- so don't complain if someone comments about whether your claims about yourself are accurate. Second opinion has a valid point. Everyone who reads this blog knows that Larry calls the people who hold a certain position "IDiots". Sarcasm and scorn are not very welcoming. Larry, this is reality: your online demeanor is not welcoming to people who disagree with you. Some people enjoy that in an online forum, because it isn't real for them: other people are intimidated precisely because the emotional language is real for them. <br /><br />Perhaps your classroom demeanor is totally different. But if your classroom demeanor is like your online demeanor, then I doubt that you are having open discussions in your classroom. Even if your classroom demeanor IS totally different, doesn't your blog still matter? What if someone in your classroom knows about your blog? Are they going to feel welcome to share ideas about ID or the ENCODE project that differ from your oh-so-strongly stated opinions? <br />Arlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03243864308260498878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-85819520011457963352014-01-23T08:05:28.581-05:002014-01-23T08:05:28.581-05:00I'd love to see a study of rudeness and anonym...<i>I'd love to see a study of rudeness and anonymity</i><br /><br />It is a curious psychological phenomenon, and seems to be down to more than just worrying what people who actually know one might think. People all essentially doing the same thing, self-publishing thoughts to invisible strangers from the safety of their 'mom's basement', do feel a different restraint when their 'real-life' label is attached, as opposed to one they chose. Either way, the people reading usually do not know the poster from Adam. It's as if 'real name' is closer to making eye contact, or maybe 'who I want to be generally perceived as' simply wouldn't say the things that 'this persona' does, requiring judicious editing of the internal monologue. AllanMillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05955231828424156641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-17823627685876397602014-01-23T07:26:58.396-05:002014-01-23T07:26:58.396-05:00Laurence A. MoranWednesday, January 22, 2014 2:59:...Laurence A. MoranWednesday, January 22, 2014 2:59:00 PM<br /><br /><i>You still can't publish a letter in a newspaper, a magazine, or a scientific journal without using your real name (with a few minor exceptions). I think that's a good thing. </i><br /><br />On balance, it is. However, there are still many things you can only publish if you are a tenured professor, and there are things you cannot publish even then (because they would mean the end of your lab as nobody would dare give you any grants once you have come out publicly with those views). Remember what happened to Watson a few years ago (note: I am not defending him nor sharing the views he expressed; I am just using him as an example to make my point as you do not get more famous and "untouchable" than that in science). And this has little to do with the substance of what you say and everything to do with the political environment. <br /><br />Now what hope is there for a junior scientists to come out publicly with something controversial and get away with it?<br /><br />And before you bring it up, let me state the other side of the problem which is that if you want to say something that seriously shakes things up, there is no way to do it other than by signing your name under it. Otherwise nobody would take it seriously. And I am not really even talking about blogs here - science-themed blogs may be important for us, but they are still quite inconsequential (sorry for the word choice) in the bigger scheme of things, and it's influencing the bigger scheme of things that really matters. <br /><br />It's a catch 22 of which I see no way out other than transforming society from what have now into one in which arguments and views are judged based on their intellectual merits while petty politics and tribalism are relegated to the dustbin of history. But that's a transition that's itself made almost impossible by that very same problem...Georgi Marinovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12226357993389417752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-51548654343762395962014-01-23T07:20:04.930-05:002014-01-23T07:20:04.930-05:00Reason for my alias: guards against patients findi...Reason for my alias: guards against patients finding my info. (I work in medicine)<br />My compromise: my site has tons of personal information about me -- my name may not be my actual legal one, but i am transparent otherwise -- showing vested interests, bad decisions and all sorts of stuff.<br />Being anonymous AND not sharing your experiences, employment, family, training and such but who pretend that ideas are not attached to real people with investments, fool themselves and others.<br /><br />I'd love to see a study of rudeness and anonymity -- I wager you are right.Sabio Lantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12963476276106907984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-17748085895404305792014-01-23T04:43:16.618-05:002014-01-23T04:43:16.618-05:00Mmmm, credential-mining is a point I hadn't co...Mmmm, credential-mining is a point I hadn't considered. I'm nobody - I have an education, but not a reputation - but I found it faintly sinister when Vincent Torley, critiquing at UD a piece of mine written elsewhere, asked parenthetically "[BTW, does anyone know his position and where he teaches?]". I felt distinctly Googled! <br /><br />(Philosopher) Torley is a great one for prefacing any quote in the service of ID with the credentials of the quoted authority, so might choose to undermine an anti-ID-er in the reverse manner, but the possibility that a less genial individual might want to make trouble with my institution had not occurred to me. AllanMillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05955231828424156641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-68791614153380803282014-01-23T04:20:04.346-05:002014-01-23T04:20:04.346-05:00Go on - that's not a real name!Go on - that's not a real name!AllanMillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05955231828424156641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-67590840847421883802014-01-23T04:09:16.116-05:002014-01-23T04:09:16.116-05:00"Nobody NEEDS to publish under a pseudonym. I..."Nobody NEEDS to publish under a pseudonym. It's a privilege, not a right. If you can't demonstrate that it's a net benefit to society then what other arguments are there?"<br /><br />It's exactly the other way around. If you can't demonstrate that there is a net benefit of banning people from publishing under a pseudonym it should not be banned, like if you can't demonstrate that there is a net benefit of banning gay people from getting married it should not be banned. Publishing under pseudonym is a right not a privilege.second opinionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17790522541732472791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-7128338498672020972014-01-23T03:11:34.415-05:002014-01-23T03:11:34.415-05:00The simple reason for posting anonymous is that I ...The simple reason for posting anonymous is that I don't want to draw the attention of people towards me who won't hesitate to kill me.<br /><br />second opinionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17790522541732472791noreply@blogger.com