tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post3813072780252026582..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Guilt by associationLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-38566383484100532382015-01-09T09:26:03.371-05:002015-01-09T09:26:03.371-05:00Hi Piotr,
Thank you for both those links. That Li...Hi Piotr,<br /><br />Thank you for both those links. That Life of Brian scene is one of my favorites. I couldn’t help but chuckle to myself at the end [Crowd: “Yes we are all different!” Solitary Voice: “I’m not!”] <br /><br />I muttered out loud: “I bet his name was Piotr.” ;-)<br /><br />Regarding the Jesse Larner post:<br /><br />Oh wow… I have to disagree in the most vehement terms!<br /><br /><i>And here's why the idea that "Reagan did it" (or the variant, "Gorbachev let it happen") really bugs me. These models arrogantly presume that the peoples of East Central Europe, of the German Democratic Republic, of the Baltics, of the Union itself, did nothing to liberate themselves.</i><br /><br />Really?! Then answer me this. Why hasn’t the Democratic People's Republic of Korea followed the example of the DDR?!<br /><br /><i>… the peoples who lived under Soviet Communism freed themselves in the end…</i><br /><br />Seriously?! Again, tell that to the North Koreans! … or the victims of Tienmen! … or the umbrella protesters in Hong Kong!<br /><br />I think we need to reexamine the logical implicational relationships of “necessary” vs. “sufficient”<br /><br />Were Reagan’s and the Vatican’s machinations or Gorbachev’s vacillations on their own <b> sufficient </b> to bring down Eastern European Communism?<br /><br />I agree with you and Jesse Larner - none of the above were sufficient.<br /><br />Next question: Were Reagan’s <b>and </b>the Vatican’s machinations <b>and</b> Gorbachev’s vacillations <b> necessary</b> to bring down Eastern European Communism?<br /><br />I know you will disagree, but I don’t imagine for a minute that had Putin been in charge instead of Gorbachev or Yeltsin we would be having this conversation right now.<br /><br />I know you will disagree, but I don’t imagine for a minute that had the current Pope been Italian, we would be having this conversation right now.<br /><br />I agree that the heroic resistance of Eastern Europeans was necessary to bring down communism, but it was not sufficient.<br /><br />I do agree with Jesse Larner’s assessment of Reagan. Reagan was a madman who bankrupted America on the altar of ideology; but then that assessment only strengthens my thesis.<br /><br />I think you may find this interesting: http://tinyurl.com/lsmskql<br /><br />One reason Evolution is necessarily true is based on the principle of consilience. I similarly invoke consilience in my defense; I can cite a variety of sources that support my contention from secular Jews to devout Popes, and commentary from any nationality or political stripe. <br /><br />I respect your response that we are not the Borg. After all the entire premise of this blog is <i>“strolling with a skeptical biochemist”</i> in order to challenge conventional wisdom.<br /><br />Wow! I have to say Piotr, you accomplished that in spades! Again I have to thank you.<br /><br /><i> Jeszcze raz, dziękuję i pozdrawiam! </i><br />Tom Muellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09829281784362177069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-36260225287532089362015-01-09T09:20:11.692-05:002015-01-09T09:20:11.692-05:00Don't you think it's time for a graceful w...Don't you think it's time for a graceful withdrawal, Tom Mueller? When you asked, <i>Just ask any resident participant of Polish descent here about Solidarność's chances of success were it not for Polish Catholicism</i> you presumably did know that we do indeed have a resident Pole here (and not just someone of Polish descent, who might have had his head filled with ignorant propaganda all his life, like the Miami Cubans). When Piotr said things that didn't correspond to your prejudices, did it occur to you that perhaps you might be wrong?Athel Cornish-Bowdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05993242236208061356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-58875261803581365512015-01-09T08:04:40.809-05:002015-01-09T08:04:40.809-05:00Further to Piotr, two incredibly simple ideas that...Further to Piotr, two incredibly simple ideas that might seem contradictory, but really are not:<br /><br />- The first is, as the title of Piotr's link says, "We're all individuals."<br /><br />- The second is, "Everybody's just people."<br /><br />See? Simple!judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-41350275277248524932015-01-09T03:19:57.774-05:002015-01-09T03:19:57.774-05:00Oops, I messed up the first link. Let me try to fi...Oops, I messed up the first link. Let me try to fix it:<br /><br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY" rel="nofollow">We're all individuals.</a>Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-17375375493830098462015-01-09T03:14:25.556-05:002015-01-09T03:14:25.556-05:00Tom, I do not know or care what a "typical&qu...Tom, I do not know or care what a "typical" Polish Patriot (capitalised) looks like, or what "Polish sentiment" is supposed to be. We are not the Borg. Do you expect other participants here to represent the respective hive minds of Canada, Denmark, Britain, etc., or to think and speak for themselves?<br /><br /><a href="We%20are%20all%20individuals." rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY</a><br /><br />As a German, you must be aware that the Wall was pulled down manually by the Berliners, and not telekinetically by the Pope. The political processes that eventually made it possible were complex and cannot be reduced to a single cause.<br /><br />Please have a look at <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-larner/1989-and-the-fall-of-the_b_357995.html" rel="nofollow">this blog post</a> by Jesse Larner. He is just slightly younger than me, and he knows Eastern Europe well from personal experience. What he says makes vastly more sense to me than Carl Bernstein's romantic conspiracy theory.Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-50592635782890974392015-01-09T00:05:00.687-05:002015-01-09T00:05:00.687-05:00Hi again Piotr,
I have to say that you are a uniq...Hi again Piotr,<br /><br />I have to say that you are a unique individual and it has been a most interesting exchange. I have never met a Polish Patriot who speaks quite as you do and I have conversed with more than a few.<br /><br />“Throwing off Communism was the easy part”?! “Collapse was inevitable?” Hmmm!<br /><br />Your dismissal of Carl Bernstein? Hmmm, again.<br /><br />Popiełuszko just another “human rights advocate?” Is that how he himself would have seen himself? Yet again hmmm…<br /><br />I wonder whether the Polish diaspora is no longer in synch with Polish sentiment in Poland.<br /><br />Then, I recall that even Gorbachev grudgingly conceded that the fall of the Berlin Wall and German reunification was only possible because of Pope John-Paul. I read the German Press and I assure you that your version of events is not at all main-stream from a German perspective.<br /><br />Piotr, out of curiosity, how would you describe yourself – typical or atypical of Polish sentiment? Your presence on this forum of self-avowed skeptics would suggest to me the later. <br /><br /><i>Dziękuję i pozdrawiam</i><br />Tom Muellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09829281784362177069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-49882629366842349712015-01-08T20:01:27.919-05:002015-01-08T20:01:27.919-05:00Hey Tom.
Are you actually allowed contact with hi...Hey Tom.<br /><br />Are you actually allowed contact with high school students ?<br /><br />If the content of your posts are any indication of what you are inflicting on young, impressionable minds, you are doing your students a great disservice. <br /><br />Shame on you for regurgitating the unprocessed raw sewage of conspiracy theory web sites and then attempting to rationalize your unmitigated bullshit with personal anecdotes and unctuous grovelling when finally cornered by your lies.<br /><br />steve oberskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067724166134333068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-88650375466926474982015-01-08T17:42:14.509-05:002015-01-08T17:42:14.509-05:00Do you disagree with the statement that Catholicis...<i>Do you disagree with the statement that Catholicism was CO-OPTED by Solidarnosc and the Polish Resistance to Communism?</i><br /><br />I would put it differently. There were strategic alliances (sometimes stable, sometimes temporary) between the Church and various dissident groups, made easier by the fact that most people in <i>any</i> such group were Catholic anyway (correlation, not causation). There were Catholics in the ruling party too, and there were party members who joined Solidarity. Co-operation (whether enthusiastic or reluctant) is something different from co-option. Was Stalin "coopted" by Roosevelt and Churchill? Or were Roosevelt and Churchill "co-opted" by Stalin? I wouldn't put it that way.<br /><br />Having an ally is fine in wartime, but overthrowing Communism was the easy part. The system was not economically viable and its eventual collapse was inevitable. The success of the former Eastern Bloc countries did not consist merely in overthrowing a totalitarian system but in replacing it with a democratic one. Luckily, it wasn't like Iran, where the Shah 's autocracy was abolished and replaced by the Ayatollahs' theocracy.Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-87918744150045117612015-01-08T17:02:05.735-05:002015-01-08T17:02:05.735-05:00Piotr
I thank you for your patience and your indu...Piotr<br /><br />I thank you for your patience and your indulgence, but respectfully you failed to address my two questions.<br /><br />First, I can appreciate much of your anti-Catholic sentiment. <br /><br />So let's attempt to invoke <i>Feindeslob klingt!</i><br /><br />Do you disagree with the statement that Catholicism was CO-OPTED by Solidarnosc and the Polish Resistance to Communism?<br /><br />and<br /><br />...that Polish Resistance co-opting Catholicism clearly contributed significantly to its success and the overthrow of Communism?<br /><br />That's all I am asking - nothing more.<br />Tom Muellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09829281784362177069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-60127657472004172962015-01-08T16:20:19.274-05:002015-01-08T16:20:19.274-05:00Tom, briefly: Being anti-Communist (even heroicall...Tom, briefly: Being anti-Communist (even heroically) doesn't automatically mean being pro-democracy. After all, Hitler was anti-Communist too, and a German patriot, in a sick way. The institutional Church (individual priests may have had other motives) opposed Communism not so much for the benefit of the people as in its own interest as a power structure. The conservative wing of the Catholic Church in Poland would be only too happy to crown Jesus Christ King of Poland, adopt the role of his earthly stewards, and enforce the Catholic doctrine as the basis of the legal system. The material greed and political power lust of some priests and bishops has become obvious now, as there is no oppressive system to justify their pretensions to meddling in politics as self-appointed "leaders of the masses". Even many practising Catholics are put off by such attitudes (not to mention really sinister things like paedophilic scandals and attempts to cover them up). Popiełuszko was brutally murdered by the secret police and became a hero and an icon of the Solidarity movement posthumously. His <i>constructive</i> contribution to making Poland a democracy was the fact that he was an outspoken advocate of human rights. I don't question that. But had he lived to see the end of Communism, I wonder how he would face the issues of today's society in those areas where the influence of the Church is particularly divisive: abortion, in vitro fertilisation, homosexuality, same-sex marriage, anything else to do with sex and gender, religion classes, etc. Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-33270564157934326852015-01-08T15:31:08.455-05:002015-01-08T15:31:08.455-05:00@ Piotr
My last kick at this can:
In a previous...@ Piotr<br /><br />My last kick at this can:<br /><br /><br />In a previous post I contended that Catholicism was CO-OPTED by Solidarnosc and the Polish Resistance to Communism. <br /><br />Do you disagree with this statement?<br /><br />I further stated that Polish Resistance co-opting Catholicism clearly contributed significantly to its success and the overthrow of Communism.<br /><br />Why do you insist that statement is incorrect when so many of your confreres would claim otherwise? Note - I am not claiming everybody was in fact a devout Catholic.<br /><br />I am not being deliberately obtuse - I am sincerely confounded.<br /><br />best and grateful regardsTom Muellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09829281784362177069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-82127524038561908762015-01-08T15:16:27.986-05:002015-01-08T15:16:27.986-05:00@ Diogenes
Re: Just ask any resident participant ...@ Diogenes<br /><br />Re: <b>Just ask any resident participant of Polish descent here about Solidarność's chances of success were it not for Polish Catholicism.</b><br /><br /><i>Is this a falsifiable statement? Or is it just hyperbole?<br /><br />You asked, and a Polish resident participant answered: Piotr. He did not agree with you. If your statement is falsifiable, it's been falsified.<br /><br />If it's not falsifiable, it was just rhetoric, right?</i><br /><br />Diogenes, I concede that again it would appear you are correct!<br /><br />Allow me to explain:<br /><br />During the Solidarnosc years I spent a lot of time with the Croatian and Polish communities (for a variety of complicated reasons) and continue to do so today. As a matter of fact, my command of both Croatian and Polish is not so so bad.<br /><br />Frankly, I am flabbergasted at Piotr’s response and wonder out loud whether he over-states his case. Either Piotr represents an anomalous data point, or my previous impressions have been formed by skewed data.<br /><br />When I consider charismatic heroes such as Jerzy Popiełuszko who clearly had a huge impact on the success of Polish resistance to Communism, I still confess that Piotr's answer leaves me scratching my head. <br /><br />But no – I will not weasel out of this apology. You are correct, I clearly over-stated my case according to your criterion of “falsifiability”. <br /><br />You are right - I was wrong: My Bad!<br /><br />Now while still on the subject of “rhetoric”:<br /><br />Will you also respond to my earlier query?<br /><br /><i> @ Diogenes… I ask you to reconsider. Are you suggesting that the ongoing famine in North Korea is not deliberate? Please tell me you misspoke.</i><br /><br />Ditto <br /><br /><i> Mao’s</i> <b> DELIBERATE </b> <i>instigation of China’s Great Famine </i>?!<br /><br />Please reconsider http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM<br /><br />Regarding mreagnor, PUHLESE! Even a broken clock like mreagnor can be correct at least twice a day. Not every statement from mreagnor is <i>ipso facto</i> false, although I admit that any of his correct statements have only managed to be right for the wrong reasons.Tom Muellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09829281784362177069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-426456602075403602015-01-08T14:49:13.251-05:002015-01-08T14:49:13.251-05:00Piotr
As for Shamir's opinion, it certainly ...Piotr<br /><br /><i> As for Shamir's opinion, it certainly isn't true of "every Pole"; my mother's milk, for example, must have contained some different stuff.</i><br /><br />Oh dear – my sincerest apologies. My intent was never to impugn ALL Poles as anti-Semites. I was merely continuing in the previous vein that not all Germans were Nazi and not all Nazis were German.<br /><br />Consider the historical context of Yitzak Shamir’s statement as a Jew who endured Polish anti-Semitism during the inter-war years (only possible because of Catholic complicity I may add) and how Shamir’s own father was killed by villagers who he had considered his childhood friends.<br /><br />I would never reiterate Hitler’s <i>Rassenschuld</i>. I apologize for any misunderstanding.<br />Tom Muellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09829281784362177069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-72815368234306657532015-01-08T13:42:37.598-05:002015-01-08T13:42:37.598-05:00Yes, that exchange with Ignor was not merely disgu...Yes, that exchange with Ignor was not merely disgusting but embarrassing to all Americans. Smegnor didn't just claim the American Christian right liberated Poland, he demanded that Piotr (who was actually in the Polish opposition) should express gratitude to Smegnor (whose only contribution to Polish freedom was thinking bad thoughts about atheists from thousands of miles away.)<br /><br />Now Tom.<br /><br /><i><br />Just ask any resident participant of Polish descent here about Solidarność's chances of success were it not for Polish Catholicism.</i><br /><br />Is this a falsifiable statement? Or is it just hyperbole?<br /><br />You asked, and a Polish resident participant answered: Piotr. He did not agree with you. If your statement is falsifiable, it's been falsified.<br /><br />If it's not falsifiable, it was just rhetoric, right?Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-76058686900516285322015-01-08T12:54:16.111-05:002015-01-08T12:54:16.111-05:00Last I heard - Carl Bernstein was neither Catholic...<i>Last I heard - Carl Bernstein was neither Catholic nor a Reagan-supporter.</i><br /><br />I was referring to the stuff he wrote, not to himself. I wonder if Bernstein has ever visited Poland. American aid in the early 1980's was generous and important, but hardly decisive. There are things no foreign power can do for you if you don't do them for yourself.<br /><br />I have little doubt, though, the people he talked to thought a lot of their own role in overthrowing Communism. Michael Egnor also told me Poles should be grateful for how hard he prayed for us.<br />Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-88791453346045100002015-01-08T12:29:20.470-05:002015-01-08T12:29:20.470-05:00Indeed, and there are Walesa's own political i...<i>Indeed, and there are Walesa's own political instincts, such as his accusation that the main opposition candidate for President was a secret Jew.</i><br /><br />It was especially mean in view of the fact that several of Wałęsa strategic advisors from the early Solidarity period and founding fathers of our democratic opposition, people who had been very close to him and to whom he had owed a lot, had Jewish roots and never made a secret of it. I mean, for example, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronis%C5%82aw_Geremek" rel="nofollow">Bronisław Geremek</a>, a distinguished Polish and EU politician after 1989, and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Michnik" rel="nofollow">Adam Michnik</a>, for the last 25 years the editor-in-chief of the largest Polish newspaper.<br /><br />@Tom: As for Shamir's opinion, it certainly isn't true of "every Pole"; my mother's milk, for example, must have contained some different stuff.Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-49817118432667404612015-01-08T11:24:30.986-05:002015-01-08T11:24:30.986-05:00@ Judmarc
I hear ya! Fact is… I am no fan of Le...@ Judmarc<br /><br />I hear ya! Fact is… I am no fan of Lech Walesa. Although he proved to be the right man at the right time to help overthrow Polish Communism… he still had feet of clay and was possibly even a secret-police informer for the commies.<br /><br />I remember Yitzak Shamir once remarked that "every Pole sucked anti-Semitism with his mother's milk."<br /><br />The last pogrom in Poland was in 1968 for crying out loud!<br /><br />This may interest you:<br /><br />http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/176408#.VK6suGTD_IU<br /><br />A few years ago, I befriended a Polish MD/PhD researcher who was working in our lab. He secretly confided something that even his in-laws dare never discover. He was Jewish. He trusted me to keep this secret. <br /><br />I asked him if anti-Semitism in Poland was really still such an issue. The look on his face was answer enough.<br />Tom Muellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09829281784362177069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-91108619372908860162015-01-08T11:03:51.290-05:002015-01-08T11:03:51.290-05:00Just ask any resident participant of Polish descen...<i>Just ask any resident participant of Polish descent here about Solidarność's chances of success were it not for Polish Catholicism.</i><br /><br />Indeed, and there are Walesa's own political instincts, such as his accusation that the main opposition candidate for President was a secret Jew.judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-70075953128833670162015-01-08T10:51:34.346-05:002015-01-08T10:51:34.346-05:00@ Diogenes
I am still reeling at your specious su...@ Diogenes<br /><br />I am still reeling at your specious suggestion:<br /><br /><i>…so [communist] government policy is to blame. But it's incompetency and dishonesty. The Chinese communists were not "deliberately murdering" anybody at that time. </i><br /><br />Diogenes. Let’s be clear here.<br /><br />Your scathing sarcasm and acerbic wit are pure joy to behold. I am one of your biggest fans. I am also an aging Biology teacher nearing retirement and hopelessly non-current. On more than one occasion you have corrected me and I remain in your debt.<br /><br />Your expertise in all matters Biological eclipses mine – no argument. However, it would appear I may have a limited smattering of historical expertise that may exceed yours in certain specific and perhaps esoteric areas.<br /><br />I ask you to reconsider. Are you suggesting that the ongoing famine in North Korea is not deliberate? Please tell me you misspoke.<br /><br />Regarding Mao’s instigation of China’s Great Famine, I refer you to another great book: <br /><br /><i>Beijing government officials, including Zhou Enlai and Mao, increased the food procurement quota from the countryside to pay for international imports. According to Dikötter, "In most cases the party knew very well that it was starving its own people to death." Mao was quoted as saying in Shanghai in 1959: “When there is not enough to eat people starve to death. It is better to let half of the people die so that the other half can eat their fill.”</i> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao's_Great_Famine<br />Tom Muellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09829281784362177069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-3785438505663025292015-01-08T10:30:37.003-05:002015-01-08T10:30:37.003-05:00@ Piotr
Last I heard - Carl Bernstein was neither...@ Piotr<br /><br />Last I heard - Carl Bernstein was neither Catholic nor a Reagan-supporter.<br /><br />Tom Muellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09829281784362177069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-84279189744698729772015-01-08T10:28:38.706-05:002015-01-08T10:28:38.706-05:00@ Diogenes
The myth of Christianity opposing Nazi...@ Diogenes<br /><br /><i>The myth of Christianity opposing Nazism was concocted after the war for political reasons</i><br /><br />Much (not all) of what you say has merit. <br /><br />I will repeat an earlier exchange with judmarc<br /><br /><i>Was there clerical resistance? Definitely. Were some clerics heroes while others were cowards? Sure!</i> <br /><br />Let’s take it one step further – Were some clerics outright criminals? Absolutely!<br /><br />I still cringe in horror to recall Raul Hillberg’s descriptions of former Franciscan priests who exchanged habits for uniforms to perpetrate the most brutal cruelty in Jasenovac.<br /><br />That said – Faith-motivated resistance movements to Nazism is <b>NO</b> myth. <br /><br />As <b> ONLY</b> just <b>ONE </b>example: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007188<br /><br />That also said, I agree with you that there were far too few heroes and far too many collaborators (passive and active) amoung the clergy in Nazi Germany. On this we agree.<br /><br />I am reminded of Martin Niemoller’s famous poem<br />http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392<br />Tom Muellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09829281784362177069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-12869619979075025752015-01-08T10:26:40.893-05:002015-01-08T10:26:40.893-05:00...many in the Solidarnosc leadership were Catholi...<i>...many in the Solidarnosc leadership were Catholic in name only.</i><br /><br />Not even in name, especially Wałęsa's advisors, who were intellectuals rather than industrial workers, and a good percentage of them were out-of-the-closet atheists, not nominal Catholics. And Solidarność (the independent trade union) should not be identified with the broader front of anti-Communist opposition.<br /><br /><i>Here is what Lech Wałęsa had to say on the occasion...</i><br /><br />Wałęsa is a great talker, but he often talks faster than he thinks, and exaggeration is his chief rhetorical weapon.<br /><br /><i>http://carlbernstein.com/magazine_holy_alliance.php</i><br /><br />LOL, so it was mainly the devout Catholics in the Reagan Administration plus Reagan himself and John Paul II who really liberated Poland? I have heard it argued before -- by Michael Egnor.Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-85358627484963348532015-01-08T09:33:04.402-05:002015-01-08T09:33:04.402-05:00@ Piotr
I can't see much real connection betw...@ Piotr<br /><br /><i>I can't see much real connection between Polish Catholicism and the success of Solidarity</i><br /><br />Hmmmm… interesting response! I cannot concur.<br /><br />I understand and agree with your contention that Poland is far more secular than many would have us believe, and that many in the Solidarnosc leadership were Catholic in name only.<br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br />My contention is somewhat more subtle. Consider what we all agreed to above:<br /><br /><i>Darwin did NOT cause reactionary extremism nor militaristic nationalism…<br /><br />… however, Darwin was CO-OPTED by reactionary extremists and militaristic nationalists including the Nazis.</i><br /><br />Similarly, Catholicism did NOT cause Polish resistance to communism…<br /><br />… however, Catholicism was CO-OPTED by Solidarnosc. <br /><br />I remember these days well and discussed Solidarnosc’s prospects with a Croatian ex-pat nationalist who despised communism no less than I. I won a bet by suggesting that Solidarnosc’s co-opting of Catholicism as a means of political protest in Poland could prove successful.<br /><br />I note with some irony that church attendance dropped precipitously after the communists were thrown out. That fact does not belittle the importance of the Church’s alliance with Solidarnosc.<br /><br />I became very excited at Solidarnosc’s success wondering if the Berlin Wall would soon follow suit. Here is what Lech Wałęsa had to say on the occasion:<br /><br /><i> “The truth is that 50% of the fall of the Wall belongs to John Paul II, 30% to Solidarity and Lech Walesa and only 20% to the rest of the world. That was the truth then and is the truth now.</i><br />http://en.mercopress.com/2009/11/10/the-main-credit-for-the-fall-of-the-berlin-wall-belongs-to-pope-john-paul-i<br /><br />Self-serving hubris perhaps? Maybe. <br /><br />I direct your attention to a great article by Carl Bernstein (of Watergate fame) who cannot be labeled some evangelical with a personal agenda or a right-wing axe to grind.<br />http://carlbernstein.com/magazine_holy_alliance.php<br />Tom Muellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09829281784362177069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-49949742615095801572015-01-08T03:57:30.016-05:002015-01-08T03:57:30.016-05:00Just ask any resident participant of Polish descen...<i>Just ask any resident participant of Polish descent here about Solidarność's chances of success were it not for Polish Catholicism.</i><br /><br />Poland is predominantly Catholic. Solidarity was a mass movement. Unsurprisingly, the successful mass movement was predominantly Catholic, which simply reflected the composition of the population. The Church of course offered its support to Solidarity, and the papal visits to Poland in 1979 (just before Solidarity) and in 1983 (as martial law was gradually relaxed) raised national spirits. But many of the leaders of the democratic opposition were non-believers (and in some cases lapsed Party members); if anything, atheists were over-represented in those circles. I can't see much real connection between Polish Catholicism and the success of Solidarity. Needless to say, upon the collapse of Communism in Poland the Church emphasised its contribution and presented a long political bill to pay: the Concordat of 1993; religion classes in state-run primary and secondary schools; laws against offending religious feelings or insulting objects of religious cult; restitution of church property (carried out by a commission which worked without any real control or transparent procedures, and whose legal status was conveniently shadowy).Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-68292481751981634112015-01-07T23:43:06.146-05:002015-01-07T23:43:06.146-05:00Yeah, isn't the patriarch of the Russian Ortho...Yeah, isn't the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church a former KGB operative?<br /><br />Of course, in Nazi Germany it was far worse. Virtually every major group of Christians supported Nazism at least most of the time-- Catholics opposed the NSDAP before the Vatican signed the Concordat with Hitler, but by 1934 they were mostly supporting the Nazis. The Protestants always supported the Nazis, not just the Deutsche Christen (obviously) but all the other evangelicals. The Lutherans, DC, BK, everybody but the JWs.<br /><br />Take the Confessing Church (BK, Bekennende Kirche) for example. Today the BK is presented by Christians as an example of true Christians resisting Nazism. Hilarious. Actually 85% of BK pastors swore loyalty to Hitler and the bastards sang the Horst Wessel song, but today we're supposed to believe they were the opposition! <br /><br />The myth of Christianity opposing Nazism was concocted after the war for political reasons. #1, there were so many racists, anti-Semites, Nazi badge holders, actual stormtroopers and collaborators in the Protestant churches that you couldn't jail them all. 2 if the Allied occupying forces had to deNazify the churches, it would raise issues of separation of church and state, which the Lutherans would get all butthurt about because of Luther's doctrine. #3, the Americans wanted a united front against godless communism. So hold your nose, shut your eyes. The myth of a Christian opposition to Nazism had to be fabricated, and the BK was chosen for the role. Worse, far worse, the Allies put the churches in charge of denazifying themselves, a privilege accorded to no other German institution. Of course, one pro-Nazi theologian would be corruptly declared "denazified" by his corrupt colleagues, then he would turn around and perjure himself to get some more Xian buddies off the hook, and so on. <br /><br />This story is told in Susannah Heschel's <i>Aryan Jesus</i>. While her stories of bigshot Protestant theologians fanaticallly supporting anti-Semitism, racism, Nazism, eugenics and even mass murder before and during the war are horrifying, the stories from after the war are so infuriating that you will want to throw the book out the window. The bastards lied, and because they were God's representatives on Earth, they got away with it. They walked, and many went on to illustrious post-war carers in theology, and are still cited today.<br /><br />Even notorious race theorist Hans F.K. Gunther, the architect of the NSDAP racial classification scheme, had a postwar career... as a Christian theologian.<br /><br />As for the Catholics, not only did Bishop Alois Hudal write <i>Foundations of National Socialism</i>, claiming that support of Nazism was mandatory for Catholics, but, after the war, Hudal and some Croatian Catholic bigwigs set up the ratlines to get Nazi war criminals fake identity papers so they could get out of Europe to South America or Arab countries. Hudal said that the Nazi war criminals were the true victims.<br /><br />And after the Einsatzgruppen (Special Units) war criminals were all sentenced to be hung, American conservative Christians-- probably the Family again, the Presidential Prayer Breakfast guys-- intervened politically to get the mass murderers' sentences commuted.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.com