tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post2419968931792895471..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: On the Evolution of ComplexityLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-35747210821662637322012-12-14T04:26:48.120-05:002012-12-14T04:26:48.120-05:00"Since no one said there's an adaptive ad..."Since no one said there's an adaptive advantage to gulls trying to flip green eggs, who exactly are you arguing with?"<br /><br />I am asking Chas to defend his position that no behaviors are the result of drift. If they are not the result of adaptive selection, what are they the result of?<br /><br />I thought that you were invoking "must have been selected for in their EEA". I may have mistaken the point of you comment above.<br /><br />"You can't positively prove that selection did not occur;" <br /><br />Yes you can. If you know the allele(s) involved, based on the molecular evolution of the surrounding sequence. You can also rule it out is you can measure the coefficient of selection for the trait, and if you know the effective population size of the population in question. If both of these values are small, the allele is indistinguishable from a neutral allele, so would have fixed via a stochastic process. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-28638790325210764552012-12-13T21:56:20.508-05:002012-12-13T21:56:20.508-05:00If there were only some way to completely shed one...If there were only some way to completely shed one's own confirmation bias...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04025404621960228054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-18300997931572593242012-12-13T20:48:20.835-05:002012-12-13T20:48:20.835-05:00Since no one said there's an adaptive advantag...Since no one said there's an adaptive advantage to gulls trying to flip green eggs, who exactly are you arguing with? You can't positively prove that selection did not occur; therefore, you can't conclusively assume that something occurred by random processes -- even if that's what happens most of the time. <br /><br />I'm not sure how your gull example is even relevant to what the rest of us are discussing. It's interesting, but it proves nothing. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04025404621960228054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-77781186545969106932012-12-13T05:40:05.805-05:002012-12-13T05:40:05.805-05:00That's the whole point of these forums, I gues...That's the whole point of these forums, I guess. We don't have to agree on everything, we just discuss things and try to learn something in the process from each other.Pedronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-21799057076060730272012-12-13T05:36:48.829-05:002012-12-13T05:36:48.829-05:00I have to admit I kind of like Byers. His views ar...I have to admit I kind of like Byers. His views are baseless, sure, and he can't understand why his views non-evolution and a young earth age are wrong, but at least he is *honest*. It's just that he doesn't get it and puts all his eggs on the faith basket.<br /><br />Now contrast that with the local idiot Pépé.Pedronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-18699552058838819702012-12-13T05:30:29.027-05:002012-12-13T05:30:29.027-05:00@Maria Maltseva
"Oh, were those available in...@Maria Maltseva<br /><br />"Oh, were those available in their EEA? Didn't know."<br /><br />That is an assumption with no evidence. There are no green eggs within the gulls, so probably not. Next attempt?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-10795303628322050802012-12-12T23:47:27.866-05:002012-12-12T23:47:27.866-05:00Pépé, you are being conned by a grifter...demand t...Pépé, you are being conned by a grifter...demand that it is your genome that is examined.Shawnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-17513908724716876032012-12-12T21:55:03.760-05:002012-12-12T21:55:03.760-05:00Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet? I d...Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet? I don't think a name change could hurt, to be honest. But it is a growing & improving field that overlaps with many other recognized (noncontroversial) sciences. <br /><br />That said, I've never been a huge fan of the social sciences; I find neurology, biology, chemistry, and physics far more interesting. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04025404621960228054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-50181206983534076202012-12-12T21:33:35.063-05:002012-12-12T21:33:35.063-05:00David Pinsof asks,
Say I'm interested in whet...David Pinsof asks,<br /><br /><i>Say I'm interested in whether or not fear is an adaptation for danger avoidance. How would a gouldian pluralist proceed in answering this question?</i><br /><br />I would want to know which fears were instinctive and which ones were learned behaviors. I would want to know which fears were universal—is it true, for example, that everyone is afraid of spiders, heights, and snakes? <br /><br />I would want to learn as much as possible about irrational fears and what they could teach us about the genetic basis of fears. Is there a specific set of alleles that control fear of danger? Or is this an epiphenomenon related to intelligence? Was there ever a time in hominid history when most individuals didn't have such fear and then a mutation occurred that rapidly became fixed? If so, is there any evidence of such alleles?<br /><br />I would be interested in finding out about the fears of our closest relatives, chimps and bonobos. <br />Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-81494724313651640502012-12-12T21:10:23.333-05:002012-12-12T21:10:23.333-05:00Yes, I'm more than willing to take your money....Yes, I'm more than willing to take your money. We have to agree on how what criteria you will accept in order to concede that at lest 51% of our genome has no function. <br /> Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-53266553426855456272012-12-12T20:17:53.002-05:002012-12-12T20:17:53.002-05:00Previous comment is a response to Shawn. The one b...Previous comment is a response to Shawn. The one before, to Anon.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04025404621960228054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-90371268508251432472012-12-12T20:16:39.307-05:002012-12-12T20:16:39.307-05:00No, what I think Chas is saying is that you can...No, what I think Chas is saying is that you can't show positive proof that selection did not occur. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04025404621960228054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-24697812781972879872012-12-12T20:00:17.665-05:002012-12-12T20:00:17.665-05:00Oh, were those available in their EEA? Didn't ...Oh, were those available in their EEA? Didn't know. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04025404621960228054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-53487656363216672152012-12-12T19:57:36.069-05:002012-12-12T19:57:36.069-05:00Since I've lost track of all the threaded resp...Since I've lost track of all the threaded responses, I just wanted to say thanks to Larry for the links on the null hypothesis, for getting me to read the spandrels paper, and for hosting some of the best discussions on this topic. So -- whether I ultimately agree with his conclusion or not -- Larry, thank you so much! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04025404621960228054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-55454236117204599172012-12-12T18:11:04.914-05:002012-12-12T18:11:04.914-05:00I'm actually curious: how, specifically, do yo...I'm actually curious: how, specifically, do you believe evo psych should be conducted differently? Say I'm interested in whether or not fear is an adaptation for danger avoidance. How would a gouldian pluralist proceed in answering this question? Would she test to see if fear increases heart rate, elevates blood pressure, tenses muscles, widens eyes, dilates pupils, focuses attention, prompts fighting/fleeing, etc.? Would she test to see if the inputs to the fear system correspond to the types of things that posed survival threat in the EEA? This is the adaptationist approach, and it seems to me these types of experiments would go a long way in answering whether fear is an adaptation. If it turned out that all of these experiments yielded null results, we would have to conclude that fear is not an adaptation for danger avoidance. In what way(s) would the "pluralist" approach differ from this type of work?David Pinsofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07850730286000817916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-56084942333562298522012-12-12T17:46:51.597-05:002012-12-12T17:46:51.597-05:00Larry is the product of the four fundamental force...Larry is the product of the four fundamental forces of physic (the strong and weak nuclear, the electromagnetic and the gravity forces) and we all can see the result!<br /><br />PS: I do hope the $1000 wager about junk DNA still holds!<br />Pépéhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00896283600100217146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-75136890199991338472012-12-12T17:26:10.042-05:002012-12-12T17:26:10.042-05:00@ Maria Maltseva,
I don't think that PZ is arg...@ Maria Maltseva,<br /><i>I don't think that PZ is arguing that.</i><br /><br />I'm just responding to that post alone, and not any other comments. That is the point, and it is a very important one. The Other Jimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-71703225123612681832012-12-12T17:23:08.713-05:002012-12-12T17:23:08.713-05:00Oops... Post above was me.
Oops... Post above was me. <br />The Other Jimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-66302382473798177522012-12-12T17:22:11.786-05:002012-12-12T17:22:11.786-05:00@ David Pinsof
Again, we're back in semantic...@ David Pinsof<br /><br /><i> Again, we're back in semantics. </i> <br /><br />I have to admit that I give up on people who scream "semantics" whenever a specific point, well described in other aspects of evolutionary study, are pointed out to be merely "semantics". Drift happens, and s << 1/Ne matters. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-84770689231029276822012-12-12T17:17:35.585-05:002012-12-12T17:17:35.585-05:00But Booby Byers is descended from an ape ancestor ...But Booby Byers is descended from an ape ancestor that lived 6 mullion years ago. Judging by his moronic comments, he doesn't seem to have progressed much beyond that ancestor.SLCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-4933366043531166962012-12-12T16:55:17.636-05:002012-12-12T16:55:17.636-05:00Maria Maltseva writes,
I've seen no reasonab...Maria Maltseva writes,<br /><br /><i> I've seen no reasonable argument to suggest why the field should focus on the null hypothesis</i><br /><br />Some evolutionary psychologists have told me that everyone in the field has read and understood the spandrels paper [see: <a href="http://sandwalk.blogspot.ca/2009/12/critique-of-adaptationist-programme.html" rel="nofollow">A Critique of the Adaptationist Programme</a>]. If that's true then either they all understand and adhere to the concept of the null hypothesis, or they have really good arguments for why it should be rejected. I'm not familiar with the arguments against the null hypothesis but perhaps I've just missed those papers in the evolutionary psychology literature. (The other possibility is that many evolutionary psychologists have NOT read and understood the spandrels paper but I'm told that this is not true.)<br /><br />Here's some more discussion about the importance of the null hypothesis. <br /><br /><a href="http://sandwalk.blogspot.ca/2012/05/importance-of-null-hypothesis.html" rel="nofollow">The Importance of the Null Hypothesis</a><br /><br /><a href="http://sandwalk.blogspot.ca/2012/02/michael-lynch-on-adaptationism.html" rel="nofollow">Michael Lynch on Adaptationism</a><br /><br /><a href="http://sandwalk.blogspot.ca/2012/01/whats-difference-between-human-and.html" rel="nofollow">What's the Difference Between a Human and Chimpanzee?</a><br /><br /><a href="http://sandwalk.blogspot.ca/2011/02/null-hypothesis-in-evolution.html" rel="nofollow">The "Null Hypothesis" in Evolution</a><br /><br /><a href="http://sandwalk.blogspot.ca/2009/05/how-to-frame-null-hypothesis.html" rel="nofollow">How to Frame a Null Hypothesis</a><br /><br />Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-17701983113932068392012-12-12T16:45:34.437-05:002012-12-12T16:45:34.437-05:00
@ Chas Peterson,
Oh goody! Someone has finally ...<br />@ Chas Peterson, <br /><br />Oh goody! Someone has finally explained the adaptive advantage of gulls trying to flip green, oversized eggs back into their nest, instead of their smaller, brown spotty ones!(Baerends and Kruijt, 1973) Please share...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-63471163092043514522012-12-12T16:04:32.627-05:002012-12-12T16:04:32.627-05:00Are you rejecting the assertion that evolution by ...Are you rejecting the assertion that evolution by random genetic drift is the null hypothesis?Shawnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-78500805202604174252012-12-12T15:13:36.108-05:002012-12-12T15:13:36.108-05:00paraphrasing David Pinsof ...
A priori arguments ...paraphrasing David Pinsof ...<br /><br /><i>A priori arguments about the importance of natural selection do not tell you whether fear, humor, jealousy, anger, and morality are adaptations or spandrels or noise.</i>Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-36952994962254824232012-12-12T14:51:25.889-05:002012-12-12T14:51:25.889-05:00No one, I repeat no one, believes that every pheno...No one, I repeat no one, believes that every phenotypic characteristic is an adaptation. That is a blatant, preposterous, unproductive straw man. If you disagree, I challenge you to find me one unambiguous quote from an evolutionary psychologist that says that everything is adaptive. Evolutionary psychologists seek to TEST, using the scientific method, whether traits show evidence of adaptation. They also test, using the scientific method, predictions derived from byproduct or spandrel theories of the trait in question. Different models are pitted against one another, and, as in the rest of science, the one that receives the most empirical support survives. A priori arguments about the importance of genetic drift do not tell you whether fear, humor, jealousy, anger, and morality are adaptations or spandrels or noise. Neither can evidence of their genetic basis. Only careful empirical investigation informed by evolutionary theory can tell you what function, if any, these psychological traits serve. David Pinsofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07850730286000817916noreply@blogger.com