tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post1922712956974814663..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Ann Coulter Finally Gets Something RightLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-1918889403928032082007-03-07T19:06:00.000-05:002007-03-07T19:06:00.000-05:00Larry:You said that:It's not a question of "poorly...Larry:<BR/><BR/>You said that:<BR/><BR/><I>It's not a question of "poorly written" contracts. Most university faculty are unionized and the contracts are subject to intense scrutiny by lawyers from both sides. What we end up with is a set of rules and regulations governing hiring and firing that aren't much different than a lot of other union -negotiated contracts.</I><BR/><BR/>to which I'd reply that the genesis of a contract doesn't really affect whether it is poorly (from the particular party's PoV) written. I take the point - but it doesn't change the fact that it is the way the contracts are written, rather than anything inherent in tenure, that causes the "problem" that Heddle sees. Which is of course your point too...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-53682476964458853212007-03-07T11:39:00.000-05:002007-03-07T11:39:00.000-05:00Robin Levett asks of David,Why do you say that ten...Robin Levett asks of David,<BR/><BR/><I>Why do you say that tenure, rather than poorly written contracts, protects faculty from being fired for not doing their job properly?</I><BR/><BR/>He says this because he's confused about the real meaning of tenure. There are lots of jobs where it's very difficult to get rid of people. High school teachers, judges, members of Congress, and many government employees are classic examples. So, perhaps, are barristers working for Her Majesty's government. None of them have "tenure" in the sense that academics do.<BR/><BR/>David thinks that the job security of university employees is all do to "tenure" but it's not. Professors can be fired for all kinds of things but they can't be fired for having unpopular opinions or disagreeing with the university administration. <BR/><BR/>It's not a question of "poorly written" contracts. Most university faculty are unionized and the contracts are subject to intense scrutiny by lawyers from both sides. What we end up with is a set of rules and regulations governing hiring and firing that aren't much different than a lot of other union -negotiated contracts. <BR/><BR/>There are excellent reasons for having these rules and regulations and most of them aren't directly related to tenure. At my university they apply to untenured administrative staff, to untenured lecturers, and to untenured Professors, none of whom can be fired on a whim.Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-22292822740838136652007-03-07T09:45:00.000-05:002007-03-07T09:45:00.000-05:00Robin,Do you think that someone who does the minim...Robin,<BR/><BR/>Do you think that someone who does the minimal effort to fulfill his contract, while engaging in none of the activities (professional development, research, etc.) about which the academic freedom aspect of tenure has applicability, should be untouchable for life?<BR/><BR/>The cause for which someone with tenure can be fired includes things like immoral behavior, falsifying research, or failure to meet your classes. The bar is very, very low for keeping your job once you are tenured. For the eleven years I taught, only one tenured prof was fired--and that was for having a sexual relationship with an undergrad in his class. I'm not even sure if he was actually fired--I seem to recall he left before the long process of firing him could complete.<BR/><BR/>The universities are not filled with such people (deadbeats), but neither are they hard to find. Any department of any size is likely to have someone who barely meets his contract obligations--who teaches his classes without enthusiasm, holds minimal office hours, attends meetings, serves on a committee now and then--but applies for no grants, supports no students, writes no books or papers, and engages in no professional development. Tenure makes it impossible to get rid of such people.<BR/><BR/>I'm not advocating getting rid of the tenure system--I am merely pointing out that it is not a panacea. And when it fails--not common, but not particularly rare either--it is an expensive failure. Keeping a loser in a tenured slot obviously prevents filling it with someone who is competent. It's a lose-lose, and the biggest losers are the students.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08688240424047203541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-80507963140376047132007-03-07T09:11:00.000-05:002007-03-07T09:11:00.000-05:00David:You say that academic tenure protects facult...David:<BR/><BR/>You say that academic tenure protects faculty from being fired for under-performance; Larry says otherwise. Who's right?<BR/><BR/>My understanding was that tenure prevented faculty from being fired other than for cause. That seems to support Larry.<BR/><BR/>Why do you say that tenure, rather than poorly written contracts, protects faculty from being fired for not doing their job properly?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-40141430747240399442007-03-07T09:09:00.000-05:002007-03-07T09:09:00.000-05:00Thanks for offering to export Ms Coulter to the UK...Thanks for offering to export Ms Coulter to the UK. We're not all slavish fans of Bush, and all his works, and all his ill advised military adventures. Almost two million of us demonstrated agin the invasion of Iraq.Peter Mchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03850862887931603954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-58085445660134695502007-03-07T06:54:00.000-05:002007-03-07T06:54:00.000-05:00Larry,"You are confused about the difference betwe...Larry,<BR/><BR/><I>"You are confused about the difference between tenure, which is designed to protect academic freedom, and various forms of job security.<BR/><BR/>"The idea that universities are full of lazy Professors is one of those myths that just won't go away. Whenever someone wants to disparage Professors they always bring it up. You aren't any different than Ann Coulter.<BR/><BR/>"Don't be embarrassed about your ignorance concerning tenure."</I><BR/><BR/>Since your response was directed at me, I think it is fair to say that you have responded to points I never made. I <I>never</I> wrote that tenure wasn't needed to protect academic freedom, nor did I write anything remotely similar to an allegation that universities are full of lazy people. <BR/><BR/>What I wrote, which is so obvious I am amazed that even you would take issue with it (although the only way you attack it is to ignore what I <I>actually</I> wrote and respond as if I wrote what Coulter did) is that there is a flip side of tenure--some deadbeats do get to keep their jobs. You don't have to ask me--ask the students and ask the <I>untenured</I> faculty--they will have a keen sense about which tenured faculty are wasting tenured slots. Deans and departments chairs will also have a list of people they wish they could get rid of for lack of performance.<BR/><BR/>As for knowing about tenure, I was (1) tenured and (2) served on and chaired the faculty review committee that evaluated faculty for tenure. I know all about tenure.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08688240424047203541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-18447274134002741932007-03-07T05:14:00.000-05:002007-03-07T05:14:00.000-05:00Try ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aiHbUplz3kTry ...<BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aiHbUplz3kAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-63958173423856107592007-03-07T05:10:00.000-05:002007-03-07T05:10:00.000-05:00Ann Coulter is insane.She stated in a Pxman interv...Ann Coulter is insane.<BR/><BR/>She stated in a Pxman interview - somewhere on You Tube I think - that all the sicentists in the world were part of a giant conspiracy to promote evilution ...<BR/><BR/>Paxman was so gobsamcked, he let it pass!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-73835678100427150452007-03-06T20:40:00.000-05:002007-03-06T20:40:00.000-05:00Dave,It has to do with the fact that your statemen...Dave,<BR/><BR/><I>It has to do with the fact that your statement, that tenure protects the faculty and allows them to do their jobs, is true but naive. It is also true that tenure does make it hard to get rid of faculty who are not living up to expectations.</I><BR/><BR/>You are confused about the difference between tenure, which is designed to protect academic freedom, and various forms of job security. Many places of work have well-defined rules about when and how people can be fired and this makes it difficult to fire someone just because you think they're not working hard enough. In that sense universities aren't much different than most large companies.<BR/><BR/>The idea that universities are full of lazy Professors is one of those myths that just won't go away. Whenever someone wants to disparage Professors they always bring it up. You aren't any different than Ann Coulter.<BR/><BR/>Don't be embarrassed about your ignorance concerning tenure. Many people make the same mistake. Unfortunately, this includes many Professors who haven't bothered to learn about the importance of academic freedom and why it needs to be protected.Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-43424512704970217872007-03-06T17:25:00.000-05:002007-03-06T17:25:00.000-05:00Larry,This has nothing to do with Ann Coulter. It ...Larry,<BR/><BR/>This has nothing to do with Ann Coulter. It has to do with the fact that your statement, that tenure protects the faculty and allows them to do their jobs, is true but naive. It is also true that tenure <I>does</I> make it hard to get rid of faculty who are not living up to expectations. As is your custom, you ignored the substance of the comment--so in that sense I am <I>not</I> disappointed in you.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08688240424047203541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-56640783133567252952007-03-06T14:52:00.000-05:002007-03-06T14:52:00.000-05:00David says,I doubt Larry would deny that virtually...David says,<BR/><BR/><I>I doubt Larry would deny that virtually all departments have so-called "dead wood."</I><BR/><BR/>I'm really disapppointed in you. It took you 6 hours and 48 minutes to rush to the defense of Ann Coulter by raising this canard.Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-76159586945807106972007-03-06T13:31:00.000-05:002007-03-06T13:31:00.000-05:00The faculty of the California State University sys...The faculty of the California State University system are taking a strike vote because they've been in negotiations for 22 months without making any headway. The issue is money; no raises for more than 2 years, which is damned hard especially on the untenured faculty. They gave up on having a decent health care plan years ago.<BR/><BR/>My department (I'm a graduate student) tried to hire 2 new faculty members last year, and made offers to 6 people; none were accepted, and all said they simply couldn't afford to live in our urban area on the salary.<BR/><BR/>I don't know how the strike vote will go, since most faculty I know rate striking right up there with getting a root canal. They feel extremely guilty about cheating the students. They also have bills to pay. So we'll see.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-57202799941967342682007-03-06T12:48:00.000-05:002007-03-06T12:48:00.000-05:00Larry Moran wrote:"Tenure doesn't protect us from ...Larry Moran wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>"Tenure doesn't protect us from <B>not doing</B> our jobs, it protects us when we're <B>doing</B> our jobs."</I><BR/><BR/>Ann Coulter wrote (as quoted by Larry):<BR/><BR/><I>"They have concocted a system to preemptively protect themselves for not doing their jobs, known as 'tenure.'"</I><BR/><BR/>Both statements contain elements of the truth. I doubt Larry would deny that virtually all departments have so-called "dead wood." That is, tenured faculty that do nothing more than teach their classes and hold their office hours, with little or no professional development or research, and with no support for any grad students. In other words, they do the bare minimum--working in such a way that, had they done so at the beginning of their careers, they never would have been tenured. In those cases, tenure is indeed protecting their jobs, not providing the academic freedom needed to perform their jobs.<BR/><BR/>Such profs are very difficult to terminate, even if they are mediocre teachers. All that can really happen is that they receive no merit pay increases and get the least desirable teaching assignments.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08688240424047203541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-33008809144691443332007-03-06T11:46:00.000-05:002007-03-06T11:46:00.000-05:00She said 15 hours per week, not 15 hours per day (...She said 15 hours per <I>week</I>, not 15 hours per day (assuming the quote is correct). Which is of course absurd. <BR/><BR/>That means she is right about...the health plan I guess (maybe).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-90325036359917297382007-03-06T09:26:00.000-05:002007-03-06T09:26:00.000-05:00I'd love to see how she fared in academia. As a w...I'd love to see how she fared in academia. As a writing instructor/grad student, I never stop working. I'm either studying, working in the writing center, leading workshops, grading essays, going to class, or working at a second job because my T.A. stipend is not enough to live on. I know writing professors with published monographs that still work as bartenders because professorships in the humanities pay so little. And it's harder for us to get tenure, as we tend to spend longer amounts of time in adjunct positions.Allysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02498689672857820197noreply@blogger.com