tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post1338842069700091588..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: The Adaptation Assessment ProbeLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-5830834194596929392013-11-08T04:34:38.888-05:002013-11-08T04:34:38.888-05:00"""Probes are designed to uncover s..."""Probes are designed to uncover student misconceptions BEFORE teaching a lesson so that student misconceptions can be identified and addressed directly during the proceeding instruction"""<br /><br />Then this is a pretty badly designed "probe". If your question is ambiguous (as is the case), all answers will be worthless by default. Just look at the different answers here at this very blog. Do you think Moran and all the others who posted comments here have many misconceptions in evolutionary theory? Or isn't a much better explanation that the "probe" is just bad?Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-3412128957556890942013-11-07T20:55:11.644-05:002013-11-07T20:55:11.644-05:00Excellent! This question will certainly uncover a ...Excellent! This question will certainly uncover a "misconception" about the multiple meanings of "adapt." Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-45021266926264611292013-11-07T19:35:00.347-05:002013-11-07T19:35:00.347-05:00Although I agree the question could have been word...Although I agree the question could have been worded better, formative probes are not "test" questions. Probes are designed to uncover student misconceptions BEFORE teaching a lesson so that student misconceptions can be identified and addressed directly during the proceeding instruction.J. Pitrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14793689589247646171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-64214536528135739452013-11-07T17:55:04.735-05:002013-11-07T17:55:04.735-05:00The irony is that it IS an important issue. You wo...The irony is that it IS an important issue. You would think that the teachers would go out of their way to avoid any ambiguity and focus like a laser on exactly what the problem is. They could have asked specifically about natural selection and they could have had one of the students give a correct answer about populations, mutations, and many generations. <br /><br />There is way too much sloppy thinking in the field of evolution education.Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-6673515417524179882013-11-07T17:49:20.282-05:002013-11-07T17:49:20.282-05:00That meaning of "adapt" is not part of e...<i>That meaning of "adapt" is not part of evolution ...</i><br /><br />Perhaps not part of "evolution" but part of biology. If teachers wanted this question to only be about natural selection then they should have said so. Otherwise, Bernie and Leo are tight.Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-73965039445890126102013-11-07T12:44:54.798-05:002013-11-07T12:44:54.798-05:00I asked the question because it seemed that by uni...I asked the question because it seemed that by unintentional mistake while writing you could have conflated adaptation with evolution. I don't doubt you know the difference, but I could have missed something. English is not my native language.Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-81366364762164327262013-11-07T12:31:45.485-05:002013-11-07T12:31:45.485-05:00Pedro -- lots of other methods *in theory*-- that&...Pedro -- lots of other methods *in theory*-- that's kind of Arlin Stoltzfus' whole point of what he calls "constructive neutral evolution". In practice, I'm not sure if any actual adaptations can convincingly arise without the help of NS.Jonathan Badgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04921990886076027719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-37321510714377670132013-11-07T12:23:26.393-05:002013-11-07T12:23:26.393-05:00That meaning of "adapt" is not part of e...That meaning of "adapt" is not part of evolution (unless you believe in the inheritance of acquired characteristics), so I don't see how that's relevant.Jonathan Badgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04921990886076027719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-19816917702241574882013-11-07T12:23:10.417-05:002013-11-07T12:23:10.417-05:00"""Regardless of whether "adap..."""Regardless of whether "adapt" includes mechanisms other than natural selection..."""<br /><br />What other mechanisms for *adaptation* are there besides NS?<br />Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-41593890784316150982013-11-07T12:16:46.506-05:002013-11-07T12:16:46.506-05:00I think everyone here agrees that the question was...I think everyone here agrees that the question was important. The problem is the phrasing, and the fact that none of the answers is actually correct.Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-80823029910256639042013-11-07T12:13:51.817-05:002013-11-07T12:13:51.817-05:00Moran said:
"""The problem here i...Moran said:<br /><br /> """The problem here is that the question addresses one misconception (individuals trying to evolve) but gets hung up on another misconception (that the word "adapt" always means evolution by natural selection)."""<br /><br />I didn't think that was a problem because since the point of the whole exercise was to confront misconceptions in Evolution I took for granted that the use of the word "adapt" was related to evolutionary adaptation. I found that the use of the word "try" and the suggestion of individuals evolving instead of populations were far more ambiguous, because it is so common to use bad phrasing.Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-27710857987894978492013-11-07T11:38:34.831-05:002013-11-07T11:38:34.831-05:00Students have a strong tendency to assume that org...Students have a strong tendency to assume that organisms strive to change evolutionarily. Students have a lot of trouble wrapping their minds around the concepts that evolution happens to populations, not individuals, and that organisms don't try to do it. I have to spend far too much time working on this idea with intro bio students. I agree that this test question is awkward, but it's getting at something important that students need to know. The question should be improved (NONE of those bunnies were trying to adapt in the evolutionary sense of the word) but it should be asked.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-45953379336062025142013-11-07T11:17:15.918-05:002013-11-07T11:17:15.918-05:00Jonathan Badger says,
Regardless of whether "...Jonathan Badger says,<br /><br /><i><b>Regardless of whether "adapt" includes mechanisms other than natural selection</b>, I still don't see how "try" is anything other than a misconception that needs to be corrected ...</i><br /><br />You don't really mean that, do you? Read this article on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altitude_training" rel="nofollow">altitude training</a> to see how athletes TRY to adapt to high altitudes in order to gain a competitive advantage. It shows that the word "try" is perfectly suitable when you are using some definitions of "adapt." Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-45154316936242738412013-11-07T10:58:58.669-05:002013-11-07T10:58:58.669-05:00S Johnson says,
A question that confronts a preco...S Johnson says,<br /><br /><i>A question that confronts a preconception is an excellent question.</i><br /><br />I couldn't agree more. If the misconception being addressed is whether individuals can evolve by natural selection then that's worth discussing. If the misconception being addressed is whether an organism can "try" to evolve then that's also worth addressing. If the misconception is about distinguishing between multiple meanings of the word "adapt" then that's important as well.<br /><br />The problem here is that the question addresses one misconception (individuals trying to evolve) but gets hung up on another misconception (that the word "adapt" always means evolution by natural selection). Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-58756437463123358592013-11-07T09:33:05.878-05:002013-11-07T09:33:05.878-05:00"""But I can't really agree tha..."""But I can't really agree that the purpose is nonsense, however irritating it is to be "tricked" by an unwholesome subtlety in questions."""<br /><br />I wasn't referring to the "purpose" of the question, which seems perfectly valid. The point here is that it is poorly phrased, from the unclear meaning of the term "try" to the concious or unconscious suggestion that individuals and not populations adapt.<br /><br />So maybe we do agree, but we were talking past each other.Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-20481305585131825532013-11-07T09:31:38.279-05:002013-11-07T09:31:38.279-05:00Binky is trying to learn GROW LONGER FUR! But Bink...Binky is trying to learn GROW LONGER FUR! But Binky already knows four moves! Forget a move to learn GROW LONGER FUR?Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01346390107297363464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-38327511421839123552013-11-07T08:34:57.452-05:002013-11-07T08:34:57.452-05:00The thing is, neither a loose nor a literal meanin...The thing is, neither a loose nor a literal meaning of the word "try," has anything at all to do with adaptation in the evolutionary sense. And, the context of a lesson or unit on evolution means the natural presumption is to read the question as about evolutionary adaptation.<br /><br />The unconscious equation of personal effort with success regardless of objective circumstances (both good or bad,) indeed the very notion that individuals instead of populations are evolving are the context in which "try" fits. The seeming ambiguity of the question comes almost entirely from the preconceptions. <br /><br />A question that confronts a preconception is an excellent question. I think it is obvious that this particular example could use some built-in hints to try to force the student to a correct answer. But I can't really agree that the purpose is nonsense, however irritating it is to be "tricked" by an unwholesome subtlety in questions.<br /><br />But in the long run science is about learning how to find the answers, not about the smart students being able to score points. An indispensable part of this is learning to ask the right questions. In evolutionary biology, there are very few questions that involve "try." In one way this is a very simple point. <br /><br />As to whether it's an excellent question when used in a certain way depends entirely upon whether the student understands the point that "trying" to adapt is nonsense in evolutionary explanations, As I said, I think this example can use more hints, because students fixated on points resent being "tricked." And this is true even when there isn't really a trick, but preconceptions instead.S Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610068751705809284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-1298882425212413932013-11-07T04:46:51.378-05:002013-11-07T04:46:51.378-05:00Actually, none of the answers would be correct. Ph...Actually, none of the answers would be correct. Phoebe says "few OR none". Clearly, NONE is the only correct answer, since no rabit will "try" to adapt in the NS sense.Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-15905693049749666372013-11-07T04:42:16.155-05:002013-11-07T04:42:16.155-05:00I disagree that it sounds like an excellent questi...I disagree that it sounds like an excellent question. An "excellent question" needs to be clear so that it gets a valid answer (correct or not). In these questions, I would not know if the word "trying" is being used carelessly in a loose, metaphorical sense (bad wording/phrasing) or if the authors actually mean "try" literally. Unless the reader knows clearly what is being asked, any answer is useless.Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-70476817845052935062013-11-07T04:38:35.790-05:002013-11-07T04:38:35.790-05:00The problem with the wording in those questions, f...The problem with the wording in those questions, from my point of view, is that you simply don't know if the author's are using the word "trying" as a metaphor (in which case Larry would be correct) or if they are using it in a non-metaphorical way (in which case the second option would be correct). You can't know a priori in what sense the wording was chosen, specially because I've seen this kind of careless wording many times before. <br /><br />Personaly, when I read that, I chose the second option, because organims don't try to adap (in the NS sense) to anything, but I thought that was not the author's intention.<br /><br />These questions only make sense if it is clear that they are not using "try" in a loose sense, and you can't possibly know it a priori.Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-89340643386342336812013-11-07T00:12:31.285-05:002013-11-07T00:12:31.285-05:00I got it right away. however the clue was it would...I got it right away. however the clue was it would be the girl name who got it right. There is a complaint and agenda to bring more girls into sciency stuff. I see it everywhere. They are counting identities and deciding what is the right answers.<br /><br />they are making the point its unguided selection because people think evolution is about guided evolution from some innate ability.<br />creationists believe if everyone knew evolution is about happanchance on mutations then they would be more skeptical then they are right now.<br />Oddly enough the present support is based on seeing evolution as a real mechanism working with gears and pulleys in the biological entities.<br />Turning bugs into buffalos by selectionism would seem impossible to many more people.<br />This YEC creationist welcomes a more educated population on how evolution is claimed to work.<br /><br />i do think there are innate triggers for rabbits as to explain their changing colour and growing hair etc just as needed. Just like people.Robert Byershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05631863870635096770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-35403494024479458142013-11-06T21:45:43.875-05:002013-11-06T21:45:43.875-05:00There's no problem with their answer. For ins...There's no problem with their answer. For instance, I've been trying really hard to grow wings as part of my commitment to becoming a more angelic person. It hasn't been successful so far but like they said it just doesn't always happen for you.<br /><br />Your answer, OTOH, would suggest that I try to become more angelic by cutting down my sarcasm (coincidentally also my girlfriend's suggestion) but that just isn't in the cards.anthrosciguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02192669356363848169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-54401457867546026782013-11-06T20:33:07.360-05:002013-11-06T20:33:07.360-05:00Regardless of whether "adapt" includes m...Regardless of whether "adapt" includes mechanisms other than natural selection, I still don't see how "try" is anything other than a misconception that needs to be corrected (which was the point of the exercise). The only evolutionary mechanism that involves animals "trying" to adapt is Lamarckian (the cartoon version of it anyway; what Lamarck actually wrote isn't quite as silly). Jonathan Badgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04921990886076027719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-45625052565560475292013-11-06T20:29:09.687-05:002013-11-06T20:29:09.687-05:00I agree. I was following along in the video and th...I agree. I was following along in the video and thinking they were making a good point. The word 'adaptation' is used by creationists in a way that I think may be unclear, so it seemed an especially good word to focus on to clarify its use in the context of biological evolution. And then their sample question invalidated their intention. highdeserthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16689032652542100074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-87735292862567747272013-11-06T20:15:11.049-05:002013-11-06T20:15:11.049-05:00I found the question in the 'how to teach evol...I found the question in the 'how to teach evolution' video section which even scares me more. A person working at the MoNH should know better. Or am I the one who is wrong here? Linzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01514267602859699974noreply@blogger.com