tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post1223521748037145464..comments2024-03-18T09:58:09.828-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Who should speak on a university campus?Larry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger96125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-15316387354804055912014-08-21T10:17:08.365-04:002014-08-21T10:17:08.365-04:00It looks like ID and Michael Behe are finished tha...It looks like ID and Michael Behe are finished thanks to one housewife’s lack of knowledge of the proper function of the mouse trap…<br /><br /> Dr. Behe; it looks like you need to come up with a new example for irreducible complexity… as it looks like the mouse trap is no longer irreducibly complex according to one housewife…<br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4k0eopPqitsZ0ZjMXRzTWhHa3NseFdsdk9rUGRoQVQ1eF8w/edit?usp=sharing<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-28090177120736151952014-08-17T12:32:22.997-04:002014-08-17T12:32:22.997-04:00Another annoying tactic of the UBs of the world is...Another annoying tactic of the UBs of the world is that they refuse to aqnswer most questions in a simple, straightforward way. Instead, like UB's intellectual hero David Abel, they just spew bafflegab in hopes of sounding much smarter than they really are. At least Abel has stopped dishonestly padding his "resume" by listing the same publications over and over - in some cases, a dozen times - under different headings. But he still actually cites hallway conversations as "satellite meetings" to pad his pathetic CV. Such is the IDC.<br /><br />Of course, if UB could produce some physical evidence that aa-transferases were designed and created by his un-named designer, well then, I'd had to care.nmanninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14767343547942014627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-78093398832154016022014-08-15T18:23:23.123-04:002014-08-15T18:23:23.123-04:00Re Diogenes
Also, if you accurately describe Isra...Re Diogenes<br /><br /><i>Also, if you accurately describe Israeli policies, he actually reaches through your computer monitor and punches you in the face.</i><br /><br />Translation: An accurate description of Israel''s policies equates Israel to Nazi Germany and Netanyahu as Frankenberger.colnago80https://www.blogger.com/profile/02640567775340860582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-29278298336438382622014-08-15T06:50:25.997-04:002014-08-15T06:50:25.997-04:00Diogenes, have you ever wondered why research into...<i>Diogenes, have you ever wondered why research into the origin of genetic translation continues on unabated?</i><br /><br />UB, in your view, what is the origin of genetic translation? Do you have one or more specific hypotheses you could briefly relate to us?SRMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07299706694667706149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-18367084066713016192014-08-15T06:42:03.670-04:002014-08-15T06:42:03.670-04:00I can't imagine how you could have made yourse...I can't imagine how you could have made yourself more obvious. I don't think its even possible.<br /><br />cheers...Upright BiPedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988889401426789414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-79754960575038801452014-08-15T05:22:57.527-04:002014-08-15T05:22:57.527-04:00And speaking of "vulgarity", UB, accusin...And speaking of "vulgarity", UB, accusing any evolutionist or 'Darwinist' here of being like the Westboro wackos is thoroughly vulgar, and judgmental too. The whole truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219999357041824471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-54972414372415050582014-08-15T05:13:16.181-04:002014-08-15T05:13:16.181-04:00UB's comment from his link:
"I can offer...UB's comment from his link:<br /><br />"I can offer my uselessly limited opinion. First let us agree that this is an attack on Christian tradition. For two thousand years the part of the voice that seeks judgement and control has often outweighed the part that leads by example with love. Self-indulgent vulgarity towards reason is now on the porch.<br /><br />How else to explain a person’s rejection of universal observation, if not by emotion?"<br /><br />All science so far! <br /><br />One more question, for now, UB:<br /><br />Why do you even bother to spew lots of sciency sounding gibberish when all you really want to do is push your judgmental and controlling religious beliefs and practices down everyone else's throat? Aren't you aware of the 9th commandment of your chosen, so-called 'God'? And is being dishonest about your motive and agenda your way of leading by example with love? <br /><br />The whole truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219999357041824471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-36135066686606855322014-08-15T03:34:22.795-04:002014-08-15T03:34:22.795-04:00Like I said. It would be demonstrated.
http://www...Like I said. It would be demonstrated.<br /><br />http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/why-do-some-materialists-insist-on-wallowing-in-obvious-error/#comment-510621<br /> <br /><br />Upright BiPedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988889401426789414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-56187652686657847082014-08-15T03:00:50.937-04:002014-08-15T03:00:50.937-04:00UB, I'm sure that you've heard this or som...UB, I'm sure that you've heard this or something like it before: You're a two-faced, dishonest, pompous asshole. <br /><br />You and your ID/uncommon descent comrades are the ones who are Westboro hardened ideologue types. You IDiots and the Westboro clods are adherents to the same religion, you bash gays, you lie, you distort, you conspire, you make shit up, you brainwash children and adults, you want to stifle education and freedom, you falsely claim the moral high ground, you claim victory when you've failed, you want dominion over everything and everyone, and the promotion of your bizarre, antiquated religious dogma, in whichever way that you modify it to your liking, is the narcissistic agenda of your miserable lives. Westboro Church would welcome you with open arms. I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of you IDiots are already members. <br /><br />And UB, let's see you explain (scientifically) exactly how and why your chosen, so-called designer/god created and designed malaria and other diseases/parasites and the occurrences of resistance to medications. Try doing it without mentioning or asserting any 'probabilities'. <br />The whole truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219999357041824471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-48341404032352917342014-08-14T23:40:09.575-04:002014-08-14T23:40:09.575-04:00To be clear, I said *some* of the commenters here....To be clear, I said *some* of the commenters here. See the difference?<br /><br />In any case, the people at Westboro are hardened ideologues who are impervious to reason. It was always understood that I would not need to defend my claim. It would be demonstrated. <br /><br />It <i>is</i> interesting however, that you find that issue more important than the irreducible system that enables evolution, or the fact that the product of translation is not derivable from physical law.Upright BiPedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988889401426789414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-12931450799941360012014-08-14T20:25:05.279-04:002014-08-14T20:25:05.279-04:00What does all of this have to do with UB defending...What does all of this have to do with UB defending his original claim that commenters here are no different than the Westboro Baptist church. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17989141381412901927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-11643174086268493022014-08-13T16:41:29.844-04:002014-08-13T16:41:29.844-04:00cheers...cheers...Upright BiPedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988889401426789414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-83438432741073474202014-08-13T16:41:02.578-04:002014-08-13T16:41:02.578-04:00Diogenes, have you ever wondered why research into...Diogenes, have you ever wondered why research into the origin of genetic translation continues on unabated?Upright BiPedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988889401426789414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-74705714290359311222014-08-13T16:38:59.806-04:002014-08-13T16:38:59.806-04:00John Harshman
Nope, made no sense.
And yet you w...John Harshman<br /><br /><i>Nope, made no sense.</i><br /><br />And yet you were able to speak directly to it. <br /><br /><i>We could imagine a form of life in which the anticodon had a direct affinity for some particular amino acid, in which tRNAs charged themselves.</i><br /><br />Of course, people can imagine anything. <br /><br /><i>And of course everything that happens in a cell is derivable from the material makeup of the system. </i><br /><br />Then you have a thermodynamic pathway between UUC and phenylalanine, distinguishing it from CUU and leucine. If you need to produce that explanation with recourse to the remaining system, then you will tacitly acknowledge both the discontinuity and its preservation. Obviously there is nothing wrong with that, since it is necessary. <br />Upright BiPedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988889401426789414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-87940665952895950472014-08-13T16:10:42.175-04:002014-08-13T16:10:42.175-04:00Diogenes: I word add words like "Mama" a...Diogenes: <i>I word add words like "Mama" and "Papa" / "Baba" which are so universal, they might be hard-wired in the brain.</i><br /><br />No, they merely represent infant babbling co-opted as adult vocabulary (borrowed by adults, so to speak, just like <i>to moo</i> and <i>a cuckoo</i> can be regarded as animal vocalisation borrowed into human languages). <i>Mama</i> for 'mother' is common for the same reason why Latin <i>mamma</i> means 'nipple'. But note that in Georgian <i>mama</i> means 'father' -- so much for hardwiring.<br /> <br /><i>So we don't know that human languages are totally non-determined by natural laws and the environment.</i><br /><br />Actually we know that they partly are. And the part that's arbitrary is to a large extent "frozen accident".<br /><br /><i>Why do some words sound like certain things? Why does "mawamba" sound big and "kiniki" sound small?</i><br /><br />They <i>sound</i> like that, but there's nothing inevitable about sound symbolism. It's a tendency, caused by something pretty analogous to (rather weak) selective pressure. Other things being equal, people will prefer iconic words, if only because they have some mnemonic advantage. (But "other things" include the operation of sound change, which makes iconicity erode away in the long run, as in the case of <i>pigeon</i>.)Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-6806667733026442592014-08-13T16:01:29.219-04:002014-08-13T16:01:29.219-04:00UB: "The physical effect of having a particul...UB: <i>"The physical effect of having a particular amino acid presented at a binding site at a particular point in time is not something that can be <b>derived from physical law</b> – it’s not some innate property to be drawn from the composition of matter."</i><br /><br />False. The genetic code can be partially "derived from physical law", specifically physical interactions between anticodons and amino acids [D.B.F. Johnson, Lei Wang. Imprints of the genetic code in the ribosome. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2010 Apr 12.]<br /><br /><i>From a purely mechanical standpoint, if the effect were <b>derivable directly from the physical properties of the medium</b>, then it would be so by the forces of inexorable law, and those inexorable forces would limit the system to what can be physically derived from that medium, thus making the input of form (not derived from that medium) impossible to obtain.</i><br /><br />False. The genetic code is partially "derivable from the physical properties of the medium", specifically physical interactions between anticodons and amino acids [D.B.F. Johnson, Lei Wang. Imprints of the genetic code in the ribosome. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2010 Apr 12.]<br /><br />If you were right, translation would not transmit information. But it does, so your premise is falsified. <br /><br /><i>This relationship then becomes an identifiable regularity of the system, allowing the system the capacity to produce lawful effects <b>not determined by physical law.</b></i><br /><br />False: the genetic code is partially "determined by physical law", specifically physical interactions between anticodons and amino acids [D.B.F. Johnson, Lei Wang. Imprints of the genetic code in the ribosome. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2010 Apr 12.]<br /><br /><i>But because the organization of the system must also preserve the discontinuity, a set of local relationships are established that otherwise wouldn’t exist, producing physical effects that are <b>not derivable from the material make-up of the system</b>.</i><br /><br />False: the genetic code is partially "derivable from the material make-up of the system", specifically physical interactions between anticodons and amino acids [D.B.F. Johnson, Lei Wang. Imprints of the genetic code in the ribosome. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2010 Apr 12.]<br /><br /><i>These unique conditions are the inexorable mandate of translation (which were proposed in theory and confirmed by experiment).</i><br /><br />Obviously not! Translation can transmit information despite lacking the properties you claim it must have. Also, you have ignored Piotr's point about how evolution can efface the original physical constraints. If physical constraints were to not exist today, how would you know that they did not exist in the past?<br />Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-64586660125965825052014-08-13T15:47:56.809-04:002014-08-13T15:47:56.809-04:00Harshman on ID: "When people work very hard n...Harshman on ID: "When people work very hard not to say what they mean...there's something wrong with what they mean." <br /><br />[Tweeted from DiogenesLamp0]Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-43780229565065534062014-08-13T14:51:11.413-04:002014-08-13T14:51:11.413-04:00Nope, made no sense. We could imagine a form of li...Nope, made no sense. We could imagine a form of life in which the anticodon had a direct affinity for some particular amino acid, in which tRNAs charged themselves. As far as I can tell, it wouldn't be much different in effect from what we have now. You really like the word "discontinuity", but it doesn't seem to convey much in the way of meaning. <br /><br />And of course everything that happens in a cell is derivable from the material makeup of the system. What else could there be, unless you're a vitalist?John Harshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705501480675917237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-74033767425794614642014-08-13T14:12:02.374-04:002014-08-13T14:12:02.374-04:00Why does the genetic translation apparatus require...<i>Why does the genetic translation apparatus require a physicochemical discontinuity between the arrangement of codons and the amino acid presented for binding, and why must the system preserve that discontinuity.</i><br /><br />The physical effect of having a particular amino acid presented at a binding site at a particular point in time is not something that can be derived from physical law – it’s not some innate property to be drawn from the composition of matter. So a physical discontinuity will naturally exist in any system that produces such an effect. That discontinuity is required in order to allow the input of formal constraint (information) into the system, where it can produce the effect in question. In other words, it’s an operational necessity to achieve the result.<br /> <br />And the system must preserve that discontinuity for much the same reason. From a purely mechanical standpoint, if the effect were derivable directly from the physical properties of the medium, then it would be so by the forces of inexorable law, and those inexorable forces would limit the system to what can be physically derived from that medium, thus making the input of form (not derived from that medium) impossible to obtain.<br /> <br />However, by incorporating the discontinuity, the system allows the effect to be determined by a second arrangement of matter operating in the system. This second arrangement establishes a local relationship between the medium and its effect (bridging the discontinuity while preserving it). This relationship then becomes an identifiable regularity of the system, allowing the system the capacity to produce lawful effects not determined by physical law.<br /><br />This physical architecture is something that genetic translation shares with any other instance of translated information ever known to exist. To wit:<br /><br />To organize the living cell via translation requires two sets of physical objects operating in a unique system. One set must encode the information and the other set must establish what the effect of that encoding will be. These are the physical necessities. But because the organization of the system must also preserve the discontinuity, a set of local relationships are established that otherwise wouldn’t exist, producing physical effects that are not derivable from the material make-up of the system. These unique conditions are the inexorable mandate of translation (which were proposed in theory and confirmed by experiment).<br /><br />-cheers <br />Upright BiPedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988889401426789414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-48007505453993764232014-08-13T14:09:42.450-04:002014-08-13T14:09:42.450-04:00John Harshman,
" Upright BiPed: When people...John Harshman, <br /><br /><i>" Upright BiPed: When people work very, very hard not to say what they mean I suspect that there's something wrong with what they mean."</i><br /><br />I obviously wouldn’t want you to think that, but I can assure you I am not working hard to conceal anything. I was giving Diogenes a chance to become acquainted with a better understanding of translation. To accomplish this, I would have to stay in the saddle long enough for him to get past himself. I can now see that will not happen.<br /><br />I’ll answer the question I posed.<br />Upright BiPedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988889401426789414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-53319886918109590292014-08-13T14:08:01.551-04:002014-08-13T14:08:01.551-04:00Hello Allan,
I certainly respect your acumen All...Hello Allan, <br /><br />I certainly respect your acumen Allan, but your needless desire to denigrate me personally seems a little put on. I’ve done nothing more than take established observations and assembled them into a coherent model. The foundations of that model are not even controversial. <br /><br />A couple of quick corrections: First, you must have me confused with someone else. I have no problem with evolutionary scenarios supported by data. I have no dog in that hunt. At the same time, I would not assign to Darwinian evolution things that it cannot obtain. Darwinian evolution is based on alterations made to the heritable information translated in the cell. If there are specific material conditions that are fundamental for that translation to exist, then logic prevents one from assigning the origin of that translation to the very process it makes possible. That would be tantamount to saying that a thing that does not yet exist on a prebiotic earth can cause something to happen. It can’t. <br /><br />As for your speculative precursors, you can see my comment to Piotr. At some point, actual translation must occur in order to organize the cell. Your unrestrained speculation is perhaps fascinating, but it offers nothing in meeting the material requirements that must be met. <br />Upright BiPedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988889401426789414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-42622553624250682932014-08-13T14:04:41.085-04:002014-08-13T14:04:41.085-04:00Hello Piotr,
“UBP, can you prove that the "d...Hello Piotr,<br /><br /><i>“UBP, can you prove that the "discontinuity" (i.e., the arbitrary character of the relationship) is necessary (rather than just possible)?”</i><br /><br />It can be shown that the discontinuity is a physical necessity for the system to function as it does.<br /><br /><i>Suppose that the encoding was once non-arbitrary, but the chemical affinity -- the "scaffolding" on which the link was originally built -- was lost, while the link itself has remained.</i><br /><br />This question goes to the origin of the system, not the way in which it operates. My comment is about the material requirements related to the way in which the system operates.<br /><br /><i>How can you rule it out?</i><br /><br />Sheer chance cannot be ruled out in the origin of such a system. It also doesn’t make much of an explanation.<br /><br />Look at it this way. The translation of an informational medium into a function effect has specific physical conditions which are singularly unique in the physical world. If those conditions are not met, then information – and the translation of information – are non-existent. This is an intractable reality. So what is required to originate a perpetually-replicating physical organization, where that organization is brought about and constrained by translated information? First, the material conditions required for translation would have to be met, and second, the details of that translation apparatus would have to be instantiated in the very information that it makes possible – along with the information that organizes the perpetual replication itself. To this end, it would not matter what events one might speculate to exist prior to meeting those requirements, the fact remains that those requirements must be met. If one wishes to say that those requirements arose a chance event in chemical history, there is nothing anyone can say to disprove it. <br />Upright BiPedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17988889401426789414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-92052876528109654572014-08-13T11:09:39.360-04:002014-08-13T11:09:39.360-04:00Upright BiPed: When people work very, very hard no...Upright BiPed: When people work very, very hard not to say what they mean I suspect that there's something wrong with what they mean.John Harshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705501480675917237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-48022297360244538022014-08-13T11:02:36.684-04:002014-08-13T11:02:36.684-04:00Piotr: great point about the word "pigeon.&qu...Piotr: great point about the word "pigeon." I word add words like "Mama" and "Papa" / "Baba" which are so universal, they might be hard-wired in the brain. So we don't know that human languages are totally non-determined by natural laws and the environment.<br /><br />Why do some words sound like certain things? Why does "mawamba" sound big and "kiniki" sound small?Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-74398015281970797682014-08-13T10:57:36.579-04:002014-08-13T10:57:36.579-04:00Alan: "He [UB] seems to regard the existence ...Alan: "He [UB] seems to regard the existence of protein aminoacyltranferases in the protein translation system as a fatal difficulty for an evolutionary scenario."<br /><br />I don't mind that. He's creationist, so God of the Gaps is inevitable. But it really bugs me when he uses ID cultic vocabulary like "physicochemical discontinuity." If he means that DNA is in one place and protein is synthesized somewhere else, why doesn't he just say that? Because then he would sound like a normal person instead of being the great intellectual he wishes us to see him as.<br /><br />So it's pompous jargon all the way.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.com