tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post737107192045604535..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Germany abolishes tuition feesLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-43161800614513071812014-10-06T06:32:13.714-04:002014-10-06T06:32:13.714-04:00"Its an absurdity of hopelless Europe to give..."Its an absurdity of hopelless Europe to give people special advantages."<br />Special advantages are a US speciality, equality is Europe.<br />Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10384316385523253372noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-51646042177220721442014-10-05T12:34:21.427-04:002014-10-05T12:34:21.427-04:00Scotland is still part of the U.K. and we'll b...Scotland is still part of the U.K. and we'll be keeping our policy of no tuition fees.<br />It's different in the rest of the U.K. Almost half the universities in England and Wales charge the maximum allowed fee of £9,000 p.a.aljones909https://www.blogger.com/profile/10277116174278206834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-45805738511783464002014-10-05T08:41:07.365-04:002014-10-05T08:41:07.365-04:00Re Warren Johnson
Even with monstrous tuitions, t...Re Warren Johnson<br /><i><br />Even with monstrous tuitions, the elite schools in the US are drowning in applicants</i><br /><br />Particularly in the humanities, there appears to be a significant advantage to going to an Ivy League school. Consider that that last 4 presidents have attended Ivy League institutions (Obama, BA Columbia, LLD Harvard, Bush II BA Yale, MBA Harvard, Clinton, BA Georgetown, LLD Yale, Bush I, BA Yale). All 9 supreme court justices had law degrees from either Harvard or Yale. colnago80https://www.blogger.com/profile/02640567775340860582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-67870649360030928002014-10-04T22:42:25.683-04:002014-10-04T22:42:25.683-04:00Its like in evolutionary biology ideas. the wrong ...Its like in evolutionary biology ideas. the wrong guys are not thinking it through.<br />Everyone should pay for thier advanced education since its to give them an advantage over the other people. Results in higher wages, possibly prestige, generally funer jobs, and gains for their offspring.<br />You all are having the common people pay, to their loss, for what they either never do, go to higher education, or don't do well.<br />You are having the winners paid for by the losers.<br />The winners, generally from more successful parents and richer, get free tuition to top schools and results.<br />the losers get no such results or school or top schools BUT get to pay out of thier money otherwise they would not pay if everyone must pay for their education.<br />Oh brother.<br />Its dumb commie/socialism. Its not equality but advantage tro the winners.<br />The winners get more out of society by thier education and so shoild pay for it themselves.<br />Unless the winners pay for everyone in return for richer lives.<br /><br />i understand a sense here of getting poor people no tuition education but they should pay too. <br />Your still getting hard working people to give thier money to non working students so they have a better future without the horror of a student loan.<br />The loan gets in the way of thier early mansion loan. <br /><br />Its not fair. Its just. Its robbery. These middle/upper class kids getting the big educations are not suffering for thier lives.<br />Modern peoples want everything free from the Canadians and French canadians who built everything and who we inherit it.<br />Then they want it from the common people today also free.<br />I wish they would raise tutitions relative to the rewards from the education/degrees these kids get . <br />Its like you guys are saying don't tax the rich. Tax the rest.<br />Its like a punishment to those who fail in education and jobs.<br />The universities in North America are in a mess because of injustice toward the common man.<br />Free tuition would be another kick to the head. Robert Byershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05631863870635096770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-59215223649607213862014-10-04T10:00:08.325-04:002014-10-04T10:00:08.325-04:00"Its an absurdity of hopelless Europe to give..."Its an absurdity of hopelless Europe to give people <b>special advantages</b>."<br /><br />Once again reflex tropes implanted by television (in effect, advertising for political viewpoints under the name of news) are so effective they short circuit any actual thought. What do you call it when you make a good education generally available to all, not just the wealthy and well connected? Why, "special advantages," of course!judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-17323479361071930902014-10-04T07:26:29.675-04:002014-10-04T07:26:29.675-04:00Robert's thinking is so typical of conservativ...Robert's thinking is so typical of conservative ideology - based so much on knee-jerkism and the appeal to our baser inclinations. <br /><br />His prescription guarantees that education will only be available to the rich. The logical consequences would result in social circumstances he, in fact, would not like or support. But in the conservative Knee-jerkism school of thought, logical consequences are not derived, thus prevented from rising even to the level of inconvenient truths.SRMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07299706694667706149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-47124100192082893972014-10-04T06:10:58.102-04:002014-10-04T06:10:58.102-04:00Of course, the same logic applies everywhere.
Why...Of course, the same logic applies everywhere.<br /><br />Why should I pay taxes to build roads that I personally don't drive on myself? Why should I pay taxes to finance a federal police if I have never been murdered? Why should I pay taxes to finance an army if I am a pacifist? Why should I pay taxes to finance the remuneration of parliamentarians I voted against? Why should I pay taxes to maintain a fire brigade if my apartment is not currently on fire?<br /><br />It is all so bloody unfair. We should go back to how it was before we had civilisation. Surely, we'd all wander around in isolated family groups gathering berries and roots, but at least nobody would have to pay taxes for anything that did not immediately benefit themselves personally, right?Alex SLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00801894164903608204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-74551869590456596452014-10-04T05:44:36.017-04:002014-10-04T05:44:36.017-04:00The average or poor end up paying for the rich AGA...<i>The average or poor end up paying for the rich AGAIN.</i><br /><br />Over a lifetime, the university-educated may well earn more, but they have 3-5 years not earning plus debt to cover first. And if they do earn more, they also pay more taxes. <br /><br />In general, it strikes me that a nation is better off having the most able people in the more specialist jobs, rather than those with the richest parents. <br /><br />Alternatively, I may move to Robertopia, where I should like to pay only for those roads I use - why should I pay for streets I'm not even going to drive on? And I'm pretty healthy - why am I paying for other people's lives to be saved? Bloody Commies. AllanMillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05955231828424156641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-86046235695356563112014-10-04T02:02:43.269-04:002014-10-04T02:02:43.269-04:00How the bloody fuck do you think free education ma...How the bloody fuck do you think free education makes the rich profit off the poor, you dimwit?<br /><br />And no, in the U.S., most people going to school have jobs because they can't fucking afford to live.Uncivilized Elkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12876539220615373258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-90544206351367753522014-10-04T01:05:09.899-04:002014-10-04T01:05:09.899-04:00judmare.
its not eny, simple or otherwise,.
Its ab...judmare.<br />its not eny, simple or otherwise,.<br />Its about moral right and wrong.<br />Why should the public pay for kids to get better jobs then their own kids who don't go to university or the top ones?<br />The average or poor end up paying for the rich AGAIN.<br />If you get the better education, which means a better job/life, then pay for it.<br />Don't ask others/poorer others to pay for it.!!<br />Its an absurdity of hopelless Europe to give people special advantages.<br />Taking money out of the hands of the dumber people to let smarter people have a better life by way of a better job, without paying for the education.<br />SOMEBODY is paying for the education. Its not free tuition . Its just free for the upper classes. As usual.<br />Thatcher also did the morally right thing in letting Brit kids get the university chance and not foreigners. Thats why Britain today is a richer nation. more Brit kids got a better education. Why in the world would a nation give foreigners their own peoples stuff! Including the native paid for the university. Where are natural rights when you need them.<br /><br />Everyone here is saying its fair and square for free education YET its not fair and square who gets the education. People prevail over others or many don't bother.<br />Its like the dumber or disinterested get punished with taking their money so the winners/interested get a better education and rewards.<br />Canada/America was based on people working for their own rewards. Not taking others work /money to ease a greater gain.<br />Raise tutitions I say.<br />While going to school they are not working like thier fellow youths.Robert Byershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05631863870635096770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-55740405280930148462014-10-03T18:37:36.781-04:002014-10-03T18:37:36.781-04:00Re Larry Moran
I was referring to the situation w...Re Larry Moran<br /><br />I was referring to the situation when I was an undergraduate, a million years ago. Back then, the number of foreigners in US institutions greatly exceeded the number of US nationals in foreign institutions. Obviously, the rest of the world has improved while the US has regressed, at least in terms of public institutions. However, I don't have a reference handy but in a survey I saw a few months ago, UC Berkeley was rated #7 in the world (including both undergraduate and graduate education and research activities). The California Institute of Technology was rated #1. I recall that Stanford was rated #6. Harvard and Yale were also in the top 10. I don't recall where the Un. of Toronto was. My recollection was that 7 or 8 of the institutions in the top 10 were US institutions, although Berkeley was the only public institution anywhere in the top 10 (if one wants to identify Berkeley as public, a somewhat optimistic identification these days).colnago80https://www.blogger.com/profile/02640567775340860582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-37080658797793663522014-10-03T16:56:59.974-04:002014-10-03T16:56:59.974-04:00P.S. The dots should be commas, in case anyone sho...P.S. The dots should be commas, in case anyone should suspect we exchange fragments of students.Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-70126626174272036582014-10-03T16:02:08.539-04:002014-10-03T16:02:08.539-04:00Larry -- unless it has been recently sold off, the...Larry -- unless it has been recently sold off, the University of Michigan (at 23 in your list) is public. Although that QS list is a bit strange -- did you pick that one because of the high placement of Toronto? In other lists like <a href="http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking" rel="nofollow">Times Higher Education</a> and <a href="http://cwur.org/2014/" rel="nofollow">CWUR</a>, Toronto holds up nicely but not better than top public US universities. But of course the difference in rankings suggests that these rankings are not an exact science.Jonathan Badgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04921990886076027719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-67913388060771215902014-10-03T15:47:05.143-04:002014-10-03T15:47:05.143-04:00In Germany there's generally a cut-off in term...In Germany there's generally a cut-off in terms of final school grade average and for some subjects you don't apply to a university, but to an agency which allocates applicants to schools. There is a legal right to study any subject, but if your final grades weren't good enough, you will generally be put on a waiting list and there is a factor applied to grades depending on how long you have been on the list. So anybody can go to law school, but if you had a C average you might get notified that you can start in 15 years... Most people reconsider, but if your waiting time is a semester, they tend to stick with their plan, often enrolling in other subjects that share some courses. It should be noted that in a lot of disciplines the percentage of applicants that actually enroll is 100%. I think the only part of the science/math faculty that doesn't reach that level are biology and geography, but if you want to study physics or soil science here, you can just enroll without prior application. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04521153536420798640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-56001244830721898682014-10-03T15:24:52.353-04:002014-10-03T15:24:52.353-04:00The large numbers of applicants to private univers...The large numbers of applicants to private universities are a bit of an artifact of the competition between them. These schools try hard to get more and more applicants, so they can brag about how elite they are because they only accept 3% of applicants.<br /><br />I applied to 4 colleges in 1960. My son applied to 10 in 2010. And there are many students who apply to more. It's not clear that applying to 25 schools is necessary. If so, why not 100?Joe Felsensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06359126552631140000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-11395002459306682042014-10-03T14:47:12.542-04:002014-10-03T14:47:12.542-04:00Even with monstrous tuitions, the elite schools in...Even with monstrous tuitions, the elite schools in the US are drowning in applicants. Admission is very competitive. How do the low/no tuition systems handle this? What fraction of applicants do they accept? Warren Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06591039769610420106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-29850420553088787712014-10-03T14:25:56.309-04:002014-10-03T14:25:56.309-04:00a large faction of current Europe is former commun...<i>a large faction of current Europe is former communist countries which are probably not contributing much either way to the exchange of students</i><br /><br />What ever makes you think so? I have just checked the recently published statistics of the ERASMUS programme for the academic year 2012-2013. Only under that scheme Poland sent 16.221 students to other European countries and received 10.772 foreign students from the EU. The respective numbers for Germany are 2-3 times higher, but then the population of Germany is twice that of Poland. Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-70465649675163570922014-10-03T13:42:23.745-04:002014-10-03T13:42:23.745-04:00conago80 says,
I should have said that the public...conago80 says,<br /><br /><i>I should have said that the public university system in the US was the envy of the world ....</i><br /><br />Not in my world. Why do you think that the "world" envied the American university system over those in Switzerland, United Kingdom, France, Germany, Canada, and Australia? <br /><br /><i>(e.g. schools like UC Berkeley which even today is still rated as one of the top schools in the world, ....</i><br /><br />We're talking about undergraduate education. I don't know of any data to suggest that UC Berkeley is one of the top schools in the world in terms of undergraduate education. Frankly, I doubt it very much. Do you have a reference? <br /><br />If you look at total scores, UC Berkeley is the top ranked pubic university in America at #27 [<a href="http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2014#sorting=rank+region=+country=+faculty=+stars=false+search=" rel="nofollow">World University Rankings</a>]. But many universities, including the University of Toronto, rank higher. Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-37959874148124882322014-10-03T13:20:53.113-04:002014-10-03T13:20:53.113-04:00Jonathan Badger says,
So what's with all the ...Jonathan Badger says,<br /><br /><i>So what's with all the foreign students showing up at US universities? Are they just the rejects that couldn't get into their local ones?</i><br /><br />If you've got money, there's an enormous advantage to graduating from famous US private schools. You don't get a better education but you do benefit in many other ways.<br /><br />Conversely, US students have to pay to go to schools in other countries. They don't get the benefit of free tuition. Nevertheless, there are huge numbers of American students studying abroad. Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-14257970158406962772014-10-03T13:05:11.760-04:002014-10-03T13:05:11.760-04:00My son is studying biology at Copenhagen Univerisi...My son is studying biology at Copenhagen Univerisity. As the main sponsor of his education I can't help loving the fact that there are no tuition fees in Denmark (though the extra benefits don't apply to non-residents). There are none at public universities in Poland, either.Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-10964565468497066592014-10-03T12:40:26.311-04:002014-10-03T12:40:26.311-04:00Well, 700 people from the Czech Republic study in ...Well, 700 people from the Czech Republic study in the US, while 3,200 US students study in the Czech Republic... But Places like Russia have more students in the US (~4000) than the US has there (~1500). Germany where you have roughly equal numbers is an exception - most other western European countries take on substantially more US students than they send out. Arguably, you could just look at some western European countries with a total population roughly the same as the US. Germany, France, the UK, Italy and Spain combined have a population roughly equal to that of the US. US students in these countries combined: 117,000. Students from these countries in the US: 36,000.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04521153536420798640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-17823073506701000242014-10-03T12:02:42.036-04:002014-10-03T12:02:42.036-04:00I'm not sure you can really count the entire p...I'm not sure you can really count the entire population of Europe as a whole given that a large faction of current Europe is former communist countries which are probably not contributing much either way to the exchange of students. Certainly 9000 Germans is a significantly higher percentage of Germans than US students in Germany, likewise for the French and Belgian numbers.Jonathan Badgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04921990886076027719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-51092434355906717122014-10-03T11:36:26.004-04:002014-10-03T11:36:26.004-04:00@Jonathan Badger:
According to the IEE, in 2011/20...@Jonathan Badger:<br />According to the IEE, in 2011/2012 there were about 9000 German students in US institutions, while about 9000 students from the US were studying in Germany. 17,000 Americans studied in France, while 8,000 French students were enrolled in the US. 880 Belgians in the US, 1,300 Americans in Belgium. A total of 85,000 Europeans were studying in the US, while 150,000 Americans were studying in Europe.<br />Add that Europe has a larger total population than the US and you find that a larger percentage of US students are studying in Europe than European students studying in the US...<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04521153536420798640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-59772705650637036302014-10-03T10:49:36.310-04:002014-10-03T10:49:36.310-04:00Re Larry Moran
I should have said that the public...Re Larry Moran<br /><br />I should have said that the <b>public</b> university system in the US was the envy of the world (e.g. schools like UC Berkeley which even today is still rated as one of the top schools in the world, although, given the current tuition charges I don't know that public really applies anymore). Back when I was an undergraduate, that was certainly true, especially in California. The private university system, other then perhaps the Ivy League and Stanford, not so much.colnago80https://www.blogger.com/profile/02640567775340860582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-67661047464261080482014-10-03T10:47:42.177-04:002014-10-03T10:47:42.177-04:00So what's with all the foreign students showin...So what's with all the foreign students showing up at US universities? Are they just the rejects that couldn't get into their local ones?Jonathan Badgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04921990886076027719noreply@blogger.com