tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post7224062043535710372..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Deaddog (Re-)Discovers IdiotsLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-60624695719370424052011-08-05T13:47:02.836-04:002011-08-05T13:47:02.836-04:00Might that be the same Anonymous that played word ...Might that be the same Anonymous that played word games in the comments on the 'Canadian Society for Ecology and Evolution' post? <br /><br />That Anonymous went into the wild wood of crackpot territory about macroevolution and the evolutionary history of Carnivora. That Anonymous ended with asserting that the ungulate Mesonychids were part of the early dog lineage. <br /><br />I do wonder why people that have not the tiniest grasp of biology have such a loud mouth about it.heleenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17358426050959144140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-18568607898313183842011-08-04T15:55:59.317-04:002011-08-04T15:55:59.317-04:00All honest people need note Anonymous, is that you...All honest people need note Anonymous, is that you are a dishonest twit playing word games and pretending said games refute science.<br /><br />It doesn't.ScienceAvengerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00855046387193200080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-85796755173534867752011-08-01T11:11:53.997-04:002011-08-01T11:11:53.997-04:00Well it looks like nobody has the integrity to ack...Well it looks like nobody has the integrity to acknowledge the switch. <br /><br />Textbooks routinely word things in a misleading way to imply that the Miller-Urey experiment demonstrates something that it does not demonstrate at all. <br />It would take an honest evolutionist to admit that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-34327784958254460882011-07-29T19:38:52.483-04:002011-07-29T19:38:52.483-04:00The most popular theory today is that the first li...The most popular theory today is that the first living organisms probably grew out of the warm "chemical soup" that existed on Earth's surface three to four billion years ago. <b>That soup consisted of compounds of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, and hydrogen.</b> With energy provided by sunlight, lightning, and the heat of volcanoes, those compounds apparently came together to form amino acids. Those amino acids, in turn, reacted with each other to form proteins, the building blocks of all forms of life. In 1953, American chemist Stanley Miller (1930–) <b>showed in a laboratory experiment how such reactions might take place. </b>Since that time, more and more experiments have strengthened the "chemical soup" theory of the origin of life.<br /><br />"such reactions"?<br />Does everyone see the switch here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-16104984016966862672011-07-29T17:18:26.624-04:002011-07-29T17:18:26.624-04:00Yes, I appreciate that, Larry. But it's still...Yes, I appreciate that, Larry. But it's still an important question as to whether self-replicating organic molecules arose locally on this planet or arrived from St. Elsewhere.<br /><br />And that also has an important bearing on how rare or ubiquitous life might be in the Cosmos.Moultonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14800784950094043498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-53590004623394265692011-07-29T17:12:13.523-04:002011-07-29T17:12:13.523-04:00Unfortunately Panspermia does nothing to help us u...Unfortunately Panspermia does nothing to help us understand the origin of life. <br /><br />It simply moves the problem from the Earth to somewhere else.<br /><br>Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-53458974702201125902011-07-29T17:08:27.881-04:002011-07-29T17:08:27.881-04:00It occurs to me that if complex organic molecules ...It occurs to me that if complex organic molecules can form under suitable conditions, then that could have occurred either here on Earth or elsewhere in the Solar System (or even outside it).<br /><br />I dunno which theories are considered "popular" today, but it occurs to me that we also have evidence to support the theory that self-replicating nucleotides (or their precursors) might well have drifted here on cosmic dust, having formed elsewhere.<br /><br />Personally, I'd place my bets on the Panspermia Theory as the one that will ultimately win the race. And I hope to live long enough for one of our space probes to prove it by finding evidence of Panspermia on other planets, moons, or asteroids in the Solar System.Moultonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14800784950094043498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-51757147574326632702011-07-29T16:27:50.664-04:002011-07-29T16:27:50.664-04:00anonymous the IDiot asks whether this is correct,
...anonymous the IDiot asks whether this is correct,<br /><br /><i>The most popular theory today is that the first living organisms probably grew out of the warm "chemical soup" that existed on Earth's surface three to four billion years ago. That soup consisted of compounds of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, and hydrogen. With energy provided by sunlight, lightning, and the heat of volcanoes, those compounds apparently came together to form amino acids. Those amino acids, in turn, reacted with each other to form proteins, the building blocks of all forms of life.</i><br /><br />It's certainly the most popular speculation among biologists but I'm not sure it's the first choice of the experts in the field.<br /><br />I reject that scenario because I don't think it's possible to create an environment where there is a sufficient concentration of amino acids to produce stable peptides.<br /><br />See ...<br /><br /><a href="http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2011/01/more-prebiotic-soup-nonsense.html" rel="nofollow">More Prebiotic Soup Nonsense</a><br /><br /><a href="http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2009/04/can-watery-asteroids-explain-why-life.html" rel="nofollow">Can watery asteroids explain why life is 'left-handed'?</a><br /><br /><a href="http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/2009/05/metabolism-first-and-origin-of-life.html" rel="nofollow">Metabolism First and the Origin of Life</a><br /><br />From my perspective, all these attempts to produce complex amino acids and nucleotides by strictly chemical reactions in a test tube are a waste of time.<br /><br />I suspect that life arose deep in the ocean around hydrothermal vents under high pressure, total darkness, high temperature, and other conditions that bore no resemblance to anything on the surface of the planet. <br /><br>Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-90034027649207468152011-07-29T16:03:51.274-04:002011-07-29T16:03:51.274-04:00What people think of this:
The most popular theo...What people think of this:<br /><br />The most popular theory today is that the first living organisms probably grew out of the warm "chemical soup" that existed on Earth's surface three to four billion years ago. That soup consisted of compounds of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, and hydrogen. With energy provided by sunlight, lightning, and the heat of volcanoes, those compounds apparently came together to form amino acids. Those amino acids, in turn, reacted with each other to form proteins, the building blocks of all forms of life. In 1953, American chemist Stanley Miller (1930–) showed in a laboratory experiment how such reactions might take place. Since that time, more and more experiments have strengthened the "chemical soup" theory of the origin of life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-56869628050030490042011-07-29T14:05:35.572-04:002011-07-29T14:05:35.572-04:00Anonymous said...
Cengage: Biology: The Dynam...Anonymous said...<br /><br /> Cengage: Biology: The Dynamic Science, Volume 2<br /> By Peter J. Russell, Stephen L. Wolfe, Paul E. Hertz, Cecie Starr pg 514 on the Miller-Urey experiment.<br /> "The significance of the finding at the time was enormous: amino acids, which are essential to cellular life, could be made under the conditions scientists believed existed on early earth."<br /><br />t_p_hamilton, are you saying that this is inaccurate.<br /> I think you are saying that.<br /> That would be the point that Luskin is making."<br /><br />I am saying that only quoting selected parts makes the textbook sound inaccurate. In my example, it becomes clear that this statement is being misread by you when the rest of the text is read. If that is what you think Luskin is doing, I agree! <br /><br />Just two paragraphs later that text says "However, it is only a conjecture that a reducing atmosphere was present at the time key organic molecules were formed on early earth."<br /><br />Yeah, this is JUST like saying that the Miller-Urey experiment accurately simulated the conditions on early earth!<br /><br />This is exactly why I asked for original material - the DI is not to be trusted. Thanks for helping me demonstrate this.t_p_hamiltonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-77277297174256624972011-07-29T10:56:38.018-04:002011-07-29T10:56:38.018-04:00Cengage: Biology: The Dynamic Science, Volume 2
By...Cengage: Biology: The Dynamic Science, Volume 2<br />By Peter J. Russell, Stephen L. Wolfe, Paul E. Hertz, Cecie Starr pg 514 on the Miller-Urey experiment.<br />"The significance of the finding at the time was enormous: amino acids, which are essential to cellular life, could be made under the conditions scientists believed existed on early earth." <br /><br />t_p_hamilton, are you saying that this is inaccurate. <br />I think you are saying that. <br />That would be the point that Luskin is making.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-33578645724321801552011-07-29T10:49:14.157-04:002011-07-29T10:49:14.157-04:00M. Dionis posted:
" if a textbook decrees tha...M. Dionis posted:<br />" if a textbook decrees that original Miller-Urey experiment was conducted with a gas mixture in fit with actual scientific overall early Earth atmospheric models, that would be inaccurate, and the same holds in various lesser degrees for any later-run experiment."<br /><br />Any textbook that implies that, would be inaccurate. <br /><br />The Texas group can certainly use that principle. <br /><br />Perhaps we can now move on to another interesting aspect of this subject.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-88057483953396345872011-07-29T10:24:48.224-04:002011-07-29T10:24:48.224-04:00Anonymous wrote:
"No problem in includin...Anonymous wrote:<br /><br /> "No problem in including this experiment and further similar tests in biology textbooks. As long as the textbooks do not imply that these experiments simulated conditions in early Earth.<br /><br /> Do we both agree on that?"<br /><br />M. Dionis: "No." <br /><br />Next comment Anonymous said: "It looks like we are in agreement blah, blah, blah ... "<br /><br />LOL.t_p_hamiltonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-69208240156711178262011-07-29T09:28:26.980-04:002011-07-29T09:28:26.980-04:00Anonymous wrote:
It looks like we are in agreemen...Anonymous wrote:<br /><br /><i>It looks like we are in agreement that there is no no problem in including "this experiment and further similar tests in biology textbooks" (as M. Dionis put it), as long as the textbooks do not <b>imply that these experiments simulated conditions in early Earth</b></i><br /><br />Please substitute the bolded part with: "decree that original Miller-Urey experiment was conducted with a gas mixture in fit with actual scientific overall early Earth atmospheric models, or any later similar experiment fits consensually current scientific views on overall early Earth atmosphere composition". Each word is meaningful and your proposed version is too inaccurate to agree with.<br /><br /><i>It seems to me that the cited textbooks do imply that inaccurate idea but it is hardly worth arguing about, since it is their call, not ours.</i><br /><br />As shown above, the textbooks are correct, the only doubts arise around an excerpt from a hands-on technology Life Science module provided by the obscure company "Technical Lab Systems" (which is obviously <b>not</b> a textbook) and should still be evaluated in the whole context. Anyway, the State Board (whose job is taking a decision) should have at disposal the whole device & software database.<br /><br /><i>Ellington could have been more helpful if he had made the point we are now agreeing on.</i><br /><br />Could he possibly have to answer to an attorney-supported non-scientific criticism?! :)M. Dionisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-24420904488281191392011-07-28T22:28:25.763-04:002011-07-28T22:28:25.763-04:00It looks like we are in agreement that there is no...It looks like we are in agreement that there is no no problem in including "this experiment and further similar tests in biology textbooks" (as M. Dionis put it), as long as the textbooks do not imply that these experiments simulated conditions in early Earth. <br /><br />I am content that the Texas board could use that principle to evaluate textbooks. That is their job. <br />There is no point in our arguing about whether the textbooks they are considering are inaccurate in that way. <br />That is their job. <br /><br />It seems to me that the cited textbooks do imply that inaccurate idea but it is hardly worth arguing about, since it is their call, not ours. <br /><br />Ellington could have been more helpful if he had made the point we are now agreeing on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-55912252497562926142011-07-28T22:17:41.941-04:002011-07-28T22:17:41.941-04:00Anonymous wrote:
No problem in including this exp...Anonymous wrote:<br /><br /><i>No problem in including this experiment and further similar tests in biology textbooks. As long as the textbooks do not imply that these experiments simulated conditions in early Earth. <br /><br />Do we both agree on that?</i><br /><br />No. <br />Concerning the original Miller-Urey experiment, it probably simulated fairly enough some local conditions present in certain areas of the early Earth.<br />Concerning the other simulations, many of them were aimed to reproduce in the best fit with current knowledge the overall early Earth conditions. There is a very good chance that at least some of these experiments are highly relevant for the first chemical stages of the abiogenesis.<br /><br />So it would not be a correct proposal to insert all these experiments in textbooks and decree with a warning they have nothing in common with what happened on the primitive Earth. An informational correct textbook would expose with some detail at least the two issues sketched in the first paragraph above. Of course, if a textbook decrees that original Miller-Urey experiment was conducted with a gas mixture in fit with actual scientific overall early Earth atmospheric models, that would be inaccurate, and the same holds in various lesser degrees for any later-run experiment. It is this latter kind of inaccuracy which should be avoided, do you agree?!M. Dionisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-48456188001131427022011-07-28T17:45:03.351-04:002011-07-28T17:45:03.351-04:00Anonymous said:"No problem in including this ...Anonymous said:"No problem in including this experiment and further similar tests in biology textbooks. As long as the textbooks do not imply that these experiments simulated conditions in early Earth."<br /><br />How did Miller-Urey experiment become "experiments" and where did accurately go? Isn't this the essence of citation bluffing, taking something as proven when in the original it wasn't? Original Luskin:"So unless Dr. Ellington wants Texas students learning the inaccurate claim that Stanley Miller's experiments using methane and ammonia accurately simulated early earth conditions, then perhaps he ought to point out to the Texas State Board of Education that the very paper he is citing contradicts many proposed instructional materials that have been considered for adoption in Texas." <br /><br />Of course, anonymous and Luskin continue to fail to provide evidence that textbooks claim Miller-Urey accurately simulates early earth conditions. Next up: what Miller and Levine's text says about Miller-Urey. Will the score on discussion based on original source material be 2-0 soon?t_p_hamiltonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-30964129436436869592011-07-28T11:10:21.404-04:002011-07-28T11:10:21.404-04:00M. Dionis posted:
"As said, the issue under d...M. Dionis posted:<br />"As said, the issue under discussion was not if the Miller-Urey experiment accurately simulated early Earth conditions, but the inclusion of this experiment and of further similar tests in biology textbooks."<br /><br />No problem in including this experiment and further similar tests in biology textbooks. As long as the textbooks do not imply that these experiments simulated conditions in early Earth. <br /><br />Do we both agree on that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-56236756697997464102011-07-28T10:21:08.207-04:002011-07-28T10:21:08.207-04:00Anonymous said:"t_p_hamilton - there is not m...Anonymous said:"t_p_hamilton - there is not much value in talking with you.<br />All the info is available for you to look up if you wish. But every one of your posts is demanding I do everything for you.<br />If you want to contribute then make an effort.<br /><br />I disagree with M. Dionis but at least he makes an effort."<br /><br />You say that this material is available to look up if I wish.<br />All I saw was DI PR posts.<br />Surely if you had looked it up (you did, didn't you?) you could post a link to just one of the original source material? Sounds like you are bluffing to me.t_p_hamiltonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-70964533804834404232011-07-28T07:31:08.646-04:002011-07-28T07:31:08.646-04:00Anonymous writes:
But every one of your posts is ...Anonymous writes:<br /><br /><i>But every one of your posts is demanding I do everything for you. <br />If you want to contribute then make an effort.</i><br /><br />If I teach a course in irony, do I have your permission to use your posts as examples?Judnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-84263830400073133172011-07-28T06:36:48.335-04:002011-07-28T06:36:48.335-04:00Anonymous wrote:
At a minimum he should have said...Anonymous wrote:<br /><br /><i>At a minimum he should have said that it was not an established opinion that the Miller-Urey experiment accurately simulated early Earth.<br />But Ellington had an agenda so he did not do that.</i><br /><br />As said, the issue under discussion was not if the Miller-Urey experiment accurately simulated early Earth conditions, but the inclusion of this experiment and of further similar tests in biology textbooks. Were I have to speak about that in front of a State Board, I would focus on the very essential points and not extend the discussion to include all kinds of details: it's not about having an agenda but about sticking to the main debated idea. Yes, it's interesting to speak about current state of the art and of many other things in front of the students, but not in front of a State Board reunited to hear some clear answers to some precise questions.<br />Speaking about agenda, the attorneys do have one: after all, they are but highly trained professional doubt casters. As you could notice by yourself, the attorney you quoted makes a case from 4 excerpts of which only one <b>might</b> eventually be interpreted as a support (with the McGraw/Hill extract clearly distorted out of its context): this is agenda.M. Dionisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-69427037989035453782011-07-28T06:22:13.503-04:002011-07-28T06:22:13.503-04:00In my experience, it's less common for solitar...In my experience, it's less common for solitary meditation to lead to insights than a process involving dialogue with others. <br /><br />Most of the important passages that I have been witness to (either my own or another's) emerged in the wake of an impassioned (and occasionally disputatious) dialogue. And most of the accounts I have read from others similarly involve dialogues with an uncommonly patien guru. There is a rather charming collection of these from Buddhist literature known as Zen Koans. They are also found in anecdotes from Yiddish lore and literature.<br /><br />There is one particular insight that I have learned to reliably midwife with some regularity, involving a rather difficult passage in deep reasoning. <br /><br />In almost all cases, the key technique is to carefully employ the <a title="Templates for the Socratic Method" href="http://netknowledge.org/wiki/User:Moulton/Scratch/Socratic_Templates" rel="nofollow">Socratic Method</a>.Moultonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14800784950094043498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-1039381450282000902011-07-28T06:02:57.968-04:002011-07-28T06:02:57.968-04:00Anonymous wrote:
Casey Luskin is an attorney with...Anonymous wrote:<br /><br /><i>Casey Luskin is an attorney with graduate degrees in both science and law.</i><br /><br />No matter how many degrees will he ever get, he will remain an attorney. This means he will always predilect court advocacy dirty tricks over real scientific commitment. We can make an example right here, with the McGraw Hill quote on which he comments <i>As seen in the diagram below, this curriculum inaccurately implies that the Miller-Urey experiment "simulated early Earth environments."</i> (see http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/miller-urey_experiment_icon_of047271.html ). As anyone can notice in the image fortunately provided, the text really runs like this:<br />"* Stanley Miller and Harold Urey were the first to show that simple organic molecules could be made from inorganic compounds.<br />* Later, scientists found that hydrogen cyanide could be formed from even simpler molecules in simulated early Earth environments."<br />So the incriminated part "simulated early Earth environments" appears in the second phrase starting with the keyword "later". The meaning of the phrase is that after Miller-Urey milestone experiment, scientists tried several different gas mixtures for similar experiments with the aim to simulate various potential early Earth environments and found HCN was formed (again, the final "-s" in "environments" is crucial). Nowhere is written that these simulations were all accurate (actually it's implicit they cannot be <b>all</b> accurate since there were several different environments). Anyway, the phrase does <b>not</b> refer to original Miller-Urey experiment but to later simulations. Yet, the attorney concluded with <i>[...]inaccurately implies that the Miller-Urey experiment "simulated early Earth environments."</i>. <br />After all, that's what an attorney is about.<br /><br />On the same page, there is another phrase barely extending the context of the Technical Lab Systems quote; it says "In this experiment steam was generated and passed through gasses similar to the atmosphere of the early Earth." While I'm still curious about the whole context of the phrase (but I am aware it's highly improbable to have it from Anonymous or from the attorney, by the same token), it could be of some relevance to note that the other blamed extract from this curriculum looks more like a web-page snapshot (with the "Next >" hyperlink in the bottom-right corner and the completion mark on the last item) than a textbook. Trying to find out more about this supposed curriculum, I googled for "Technical Lab Systems"; the only institution with this name seems to be Technical Lab Systems Inc, 815 Santa Cruz Drive, Keller, TX 76248-4148. Apparently, there is no 815 on Santa Cruz Drive, Keller; the map given at http://www.manta.com/cmap/mtqjcdj/technical-lab-systems-inc points to one of the houses in a residential area of Keller, hardly the headquarters of a serious publishing house. The available information seems to point toward a small business services company. Aside the attorney's pages (and those quoting him) there is only one other reference to "Technical Lab Systems", http://www.sanbenito.k12.tx.us/tech_plan/2010_2013/edu_prep.html : "Each Science Lab is furnished with hands-on technology modules (Technical Lab Systems) for Physical science, Earth Science and Life Science and are aligned to grade 1-5 and 6-8 science TEKS." So far, it seems that San Benito School District makes use of some tech devices provided by a local small company "Technical Lab Systems" of which the Life Science module happens to contain a rather unclear phrase on the Miller-Urey experiment. I can easily figure out that some omissions or something similar occurred when adapting a textbook to the electronic format, so the one to be blamed for the potentially misleading text is the guy who prepared it in this form. Of course, one should still evaluate the whole context.M. Dionisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-64423938761721193262011-07-27T22:23:32.289-04:002011-07-27T22:23:32.289-04:00Moulton, you posted:
"Enlightenment is one of...Moulton, you posted:<br />"Enlightenment is one of those transitions that can arise in private meditation, but it's also possible to midwife the process by means of engaging in a Socratic Dialogue with an uncommonly patient mentor."<br /><br />Are you of the opinion that thinking alone will lead to Enlightenment or does the novice have to change himself in some significant way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-49270037156972642702011-07-27T22:07:45.799-04:002011-07-27T22:07:45.799-04:00M. Dionis, if Ellington were actually interested i...M. Dionis, if Ellington were actually interested in disclosing the truth he could have simply pointed out to the Texas folks that the Miller-Urey experiment did not accurately simulate early Earth and that textbooks should not imply that. <br />At a minimum he should have said that it was not an established opinion that the Miller-Urey experiment accurately simulated early Earth.<br />But Ellington had an agenda so he did not do that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com