tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post6922357103805102514..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Meet Joe FelsensteinLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger120125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-66191790660385193142014-10-26T20:26:31.317-04:002014-10-26T20:26:31.317-04:00It was apparently guys from the University of Iowa...It was apparently guys from the University of Iowa who moved it to San Francisco once it got started.Joe Felsensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06359126552631140000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-13966824582682209802014-10-26T20:13:04.413-04:002014-10-26T20:13:04.413-04:00Joe, thanks for the info I will definitely check t...Joe, thanks for the info I will definitely check that web site out. I haven't thought about Dr. Science in years. <br /><br />When I was an undergraduate I had the opportunity to do lab research with a molecular biologist and there was a visiting high school science teacher in the lab for one summer, learning more about bench science. He was from Wisconsin and had a collection of Dr, Science NPR bits on an obsolete piece of technology called a compact casette tape. Maybe that's why I thought Dr. Science came from Wisconsin.<br /><br />Anyway, very funny stuff.Chris Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04778164246719803780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-59106127451522203462014-10-26T20:07:24.752-04:002014-10-26T20:07:24.752-04:00John Harshman, yes that was it, Dr. Science! He kn...John Harshman, yes that was it, Dr. Science! He knows more than you do!<br /><br />So funny.Chris Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04778164246719803780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-62533611435531108492014-10-26T14:25:39.587-04:002014-10-26T14:25:39.587-04:00And let us not forget that the Catholic church, wh...And let us not forget that the Catholic church, who according to one of our viler IDiot trolls "was the primary scientific institution in the world during the centuries of the scientific revolution" responded to the Black Death by having people gather together in large groups in enclosed spaces to mumble imprecations to an absentee deity thus ensuring maximum contamination, torture and kill as suspected familiars of witches rat killing cats, take notice that the Jews whom they had previously forced into ghettos and perforce had higher standards of hygiene therefore suffering less from the plague, instigated persecutions and massacres of Jewish communities throughout Europe.<br /><br /><br />steve oberskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067724166134333068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-60450178749562572622014-10-26T09:13:30.829-04:002014-10-26T09:13:30.829-04:00Yersinia pestis was intelligently designed to redu...<i>Yersinia pestis</i> was intelligently designed to reduce the population of European Christians by more than 30% in one fell swoop, in the mid 14th century, and it did the job very neatly. It may lack a flagellum itself, but it greatly helped to revive flagellation as a popular outdoor activity among the human survivors.Piotr GÄ…siorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-60174445371073801632014-10-26T08:28:17.738-04:002014-10-26T08:28:17.738-04:00@John H: That is not enough detail.
Dr. Science ...@John H: That is not enough detail.<br /><br />Dr. Science (Dan Coffey, sometimes with the help of Merle Kessler) was a hilarious NPR comedy turn from the 1980s. There are Wikipedia sites for "Ask Dr. Science" and for the Duck's Breath Mystery Theatre. There is also a Dr. Science web site <a href="http://www.drscience.com" rel="nofollow">here</a>. I remember one time when Dr. Science devoted his 5-minute show to trying to explain the relationship between hermetic philosophy, hermits, and hermeneutics.<br /><br />I also am a proud owner ot a copy of "The Official Dr. Science Big Book of Science (Simplified)", which can still be purchased at Amazon. It has a number of historical sketches of famous scientists (Einstein, etc.) which have all sorts of crazy stuff made up about them. The last historical sketch is of Nicola Tesla, which sounds exactly as crazy as all the others -- <em>but is a wholly accurate description of Tesla's life and work!</em><br /><br />Alas, Dr. Science went off the air, after Creation Science proved to be so crazy that it outdid the Ducks Breath Mystery Theatre.Joe Felsensteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06359126552631140000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-88162273165505537572014-10-26T08:03:47.144-04:002014-10-26T08:03:47.144-04:00Yersinia pestis as in the bubonic plague ?
Yet an...Yersinia pestis as in the bubonic plague ?<br /><br />Yet another one of those mysterious gifts from the designer showing how much he loves us.steve oberskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14067724166134333068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-81346978874337633022014-10-26T06:22:35.967-04:002014-10-26T06:22:35.967-04:00To be fair, Axe did do some experiments, serially ...To be fair, Axe did do some experiments, serially knocking out residues on the protein surface and discovering that function was rapidly lost. Quest - how do you respond to the criticism that this is an unrealistic model of evolutionary substitution, artificially and drastically restricting the dimensionality of sequence space in a manner unavailable to 'real' mutation?AllanMillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05955231828424156641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-1402403503590910102014-10-26T00:40:28.082-04:002014-10-26T00:40:28.082-04:00That was Dr. Science from the Duck's Breath My...That was Dr. Science from the Duck's Breath Mystery Theater. He's not a real doctor. He has a master's degree. In science! He knows more than you do.John Harshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705501480675917237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-21145802664354118712014-10-25T22:44:47.259-04:002014-10-25T22:44:47.259-04:00"So bacteria can survive without a flagellum...."So bacteria can survive without a flagellum... it only dies when helvolutinists need to prove their point... "<br /><br />No, many bacteria do not have a flagellum. The species I work with, Yersinia pestis, is non motile. But it has one of the most studied type 3 secretion systems in bacteriology. <br /><br />"What a damn luck... it must be so frustrating to live in the world of "science" that ONLY has fairy-tails to support itself... "<br /><br />Again, Quest, you are just embarassing yourself. You are desperately trying to prop up your fairy tales of an intelligent designer, never providing even an introductory tidbit of evidence in favor of your fantasy. Then you project your inadequacies on scientists while we build upon decades of evidence from many scientific disciplines. Can't you see your approach is not improving with age?<br /><br />"Tell us more stories Mr. "Science" lol"<br /><br />Mr. Science was a radio short back in the 70s/early 80s, I think it was out of a place in Wisconsin. Anyway, it was a hilarious series giving completely preposterous explanations for well understood phenomena. You sound like that, Quest, but without the humor.<br /><br />lol indeed.Chris Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04778164246719803780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-74072816144315463172014-10-25T19:25:30.136-04:002014-10-25T19:25:30.136-04:00So bacteria can survive without a flagellum... it ...So bacteria can survive without a flagellum... it only dies when helvolutinists need to prove their point... What a damn luck... it must be so frustrating to live in the world of "science" that ONLY has fairy-tails to support itself... Tell us more stories Mr. "Science" lolAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-48734936463621042112014-10-25T01:42:07.939-04:002014-10-25T01:42:07.939-04:00Quest,
Plenty of bacteria doen't have flagel...Quest, <br /><br />Plenty of bacteria doen't have flagella. If someone cuts out your pancreas, you will soon die. That doesn't disprove evolution. If you understood evolutionary theory, you would understand that simple fact. If we cut out your appendix, no problem. The appendix is a vestifgial organ, further evidence in favor of evoutionary theory. In fact if your appendix has gotten plugged with food moving through your digestive system, gut bacteria will start fermenting it, your appendix will fill with the gases of that fermentation and expand. Inflammation will set in as the body senses an invasion and tries to defend itself. If we cut your appendix out then, we save your life. If not, it will eventually burst and you will die a painful death from peritonitis and toxic shock. Some intelligent design.<br /><br />As for Behe/Axe, they didn't do any experiments or presented any proofs. They made assumptions and calculations, which Diogenes (and others) refuted and showed to be wrong. Behe/Axe are the ones who need to back up their claims (since they are the ones making claims - see how that works, Quest?), or else if you disagree with Diogenes's maths, explain to us where he went wrong. Until then you are just whining.<br /><br />"Evolutionists" don't need to put proof in anybody's face. There are decades of peer reviewed scientific literature brimming with evidence. You haven't refuted a single line of it, or provided any viable alternative. Bottom line, we are sitting on a mountain of evidence, and you have nothing except that an invisible omnipotent being (for which you have ZERO evidence) did it. Provide one single shred of scientific evidence in favor of that.<br /><br />Please don't pretend you are interested in science and experimentation. And stop projecting:<br /><br />"It is always an in the making... someone, somewhere, in some place possibly preformed shit and that's what your "science" is all about..."<br /><br />You are describing yourself and your ID/creationist ilk here, not scientists. As I told you, scientists have decades of experimentation and evidence that you can't just wave away because it doesn't conform to your fairy tales. ID/creationists are the ones who have been promising real science and evidence to back up their preposterous claims, but it just never seems to make the light of day. But your proof of design is just around the corner, isn't it, Quest? Dembski developed a mathematical way to detect design in nature 15 or so years ago. How's the experimental application of his hypothesis coming along, Quest?<br /><br />And here is more incredible projection/hypocrisy:<br />"provide stories, excuses and name calling... lol ..."...the pot calling the kettle black..."<br />Followed by:<br />"And this is actually the point I will be making each time morons like you provide me with your speculation about "what if" or "it could have happens"... "<br /><br />I'm almost embarassed for you.<br /><br />How about you provide some proof for your "what if" and 'what could have happened'? Provide one single shred of evidence for intelligent design.<br /><br />(Hint: "It looks designed to me" is not evidence. We've already been down that road. Time to put up or shut up.)Chris Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04778164246719803780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-51121538740889219272014-10-24T22:19:10.483-04:002014-10-24T22:19:10.483-04:00Dinogene,
What evidence are you talking about......Dinogene, <br /><br />What evidence are you talking about....? Larry never preformed any experiments to contradict Axe or Behe...? He just claimed he did which means shit to everyone unless he back ups his claims which he hasn't ... I know one thing now: If evolutionists have experimental proof for something, it is in everybody's face... If they don't... It is always an in the making... someone, somewhere, in some place possibly preformed shit and that's what your "science" is all about...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-37752333637100696682014-10-24T22:08:18.882-04:002014-10-24T22:08:18.882-04:00Chris B,
What evidence are you talking about...?...Chris B, <br /><br />What evidence are you talking about...? I have asked you to preform scientific experiments to prove your beliefs: <br /><br />Example one: <br /><br />I have asked you, Larry, Dionogenes and others to go to the lab, and preform some scientific experiments.... <br /><br />For example: I have asked you to delete the genes for the flagellum in a bacterium or to make it a bit defective.... <br /><br />You told me that if bacterium were deficient of a flagellum, it would most certainly die.... Right...? <br /><br />If that is true, how did the bacterium survive without the flagellum in the first place...? How...? Don't tell me that it evolved because I treat this word like Larry used the word IDiot when he has no arguments supported by scientific experimentation....<br /><br />Well.... I'm sure you will have some amusing story to back up your claims but I can guarantee it they ain't gonna be scientific... even if you and your buddies call it as such... It is going to be a bunch of baloney that has nothing to do with experimentally proven evidence... <br /><br />And this is actually the point I will be making each time morons like you provide me with your speculation about "what if" or "it could have happens"... <br /><br />I'm tired of your bullshit wrapped up in so called scientific toilet paper....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-40250332290488888262014-10-24T11:18:33.394-04:002014-10-24T11:18:33.394-04:00Pest says: "Larry and "theoretical scien...Pest says: <i>"Larry and "theoretical scientist" like him who instead of providing evidence for their imaginary powers of evolution provide stories, excuses and name calling"</i><br /><br />This is a lie, indeed, the #1 lie of creationists. Larry and other scientists here presented evidence for evolution. It was the IDcreationists who presented imagination and storytelling. <br /><br />IDcreationist argument: "I imagine one transition between a rose bush and an apple tree. I imagine it dying. Therefore I have proven the impossibility of all ten trillion possible pathways from the common ancestor to modern plants!" This is imagination, not evidence.<br /><br />Both evolutionists and IDcreationists have used name-calling. The IDcreationists are worse. Indeed, they have an entire website devoted to name-calling: Uncommon Descent.Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-51207130441970708232014-10-24T10:03:50.627-04:002014-10-24T10:03:50.627-04:00"And who is an idiot now...?"
Looks lik..."And who is an idiot now...?"<br /><br />Looks like you are the one namecalling, Quest. Pointing out your willful ignorance is just stating a fact. You have already been provided with evidence that you asked for, but since you are not genuinely interested in learning anything at all (just interested in making yourself feel better about your irrational beliefs) you ignore the evidence and pretend it's not there.Chris Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04778164246719803780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-59538910129067096492014-10-24T06:51:45.265-04:002014-10-24T06:51:45.265-04:00From Quest:
They may be good looking men but they...From Quest:<br /><br /><i>They may be good looking men but they would not MAKE good looking women.</i><br /><br />Now there's some incisive thought about evolution for you.judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-10722980444920054892014-10-24T05:52:03.072-04:002014-10-24T05:52:03.072-04:00$1000 bets ... excessive use of ellipsis ... fondn...$1000 bets ... excessive use of ellipsis ... fondness of the word 'shit' ... this is getting tired, Witton. AllanMillerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05955231828424156641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-28786347977623916182014-10-24T05:47:36.650-04:002014-10-24T05:47:36.650-04:00... You are?... You are?Gralgrathorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14928559772595731772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-1976070367151721222014-10-24T05:37:45.289-04:002014-10-24T05:37:45.289-04:00Chris B,
Why didn't you write that I don'...Chris B,<br /><br />Why didn't you write that I don't understand evolution instead of: " profound lack of knowledge"...? At least you would be on the same page with Larry and "theoretical scientist" like him who instead of providing evidence for their imaginary powers of evolution provide stories, excuses and name calling... lol ..."...the pot calling the kettle black...<br /><br />And who is an idiot now...?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-35039571109179344422014-10-24T01:35:54.301-04:002014-10-24T01:35:54.301-04:00Quest,
"I knew WHAT you were going to answer ...Quest,<br />"I knew WHAT you were going to answer before you did... "<br /><br />Yeah, sure you did. <br /><br />" there are a lot of opportunists on both side of the issue whether evolution is true or not..."<br /><br />Evolution is true.<br /><br />"Evolution or as I defined it; change with in kind or species does happen... "<br /><br />You concede microevolution because creationists conceded this decades ago. You would all look like loonies, even to people sympathetic to you, if you tried to deny that.<br /><br />What I'm DEMANDING THE PROOF FOR is very simple;<br /><br />"They say evolution by natural selection ( or whatever mechanism Larry and others like) acting of variation will never, ever build a new, properly defined species"<br /><br />Who says this?<br /><br />"You work with plants, so you can't ignore THE FACKT THAT THERE IS the barrier that exists between some species"<br /><br />Had you been paying attention, you would have grasped that Barbara schooled you in how plants can rapidly create new species, through chromosome doubling. This can happen not only within a species, but between unrelated species as well. So pointing to 'plants' as being a convincing example of the FACKT of a barrier between species is the worst possible example you could give. You could not be more wrong.<br /><br />" and definitely between kinds..."<br /><br />You just said you weren't even going to mention kinds.<br /><br />"You can't turn a rose into an apple tree and the other way around... claiming otherwise is just bullshit that requires faith and not scientific knowledge not to mention experiments...."<br /><br />Once again, Quest, you demonstrate a profound lack of knowledge of the theory you are so sure you know is wrong. As you have been told many, many times, turning a rose into an apple tree and the other way around is the work of an omnipotent invisible spook, not evolution. If your premise seems preposterous, I would agree, and ask how your magical being does such things.Chris Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04778164246719803780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-69980717265872342772014-10-23T19:20:37.838-04:002014-10-23T19:20:37.838-04:00I'm willing to bet you $1000 that your horse w...I'm willing to bet you $1000 that your horse wild turn out to be shit...<br />If you have faith in your faith, meet me at the end... Your faith is or must be worth more than $1000...? <br />Let me know if you are interested... You don't have to reveal your true identity in the bet however.... So... Do you have faith... or just a faith as needed..?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-78724526078386197212014-10-23T19:14:55.294-04:002014-10-23T19:14:55.294-04:00Dear Barbara,
I knew WHAT you were going to answ...Dear Barbara, <br /><br />I knew WHAT you were going to answer before you did... <br /><br />Frankly, I don't give a shit about creationist/evolutionists debate... So... don't misunderstand me because there are a lot of opportunists on both side of the issue whether evolution is true or not...<br /><br />So... let's make it clear...<br /><br />Evolution or as I defined it; change with in kind or species does happen... <br />If it didn't, we all would look the same... Can you imagine some women looking like ...say Joe F or Larry...? They may be good looking men but they would not MAKE good looking women...<br /><br />So... variation WITHIN A KIND OR SPECIES is not only happening but it seems necessary...<br /><br />What I'm DEMANDING THE PROOF FOR is very simple;<br /><br />Variation within a species happens and often pretty quickly... mixing wolves with coyotes, wild foxes with domesticated ones.... is a change without a doubt... but that is not what I'm looking for and what Neo-Darwinist claimed... They say evolution by natural selection ( or whatever mechanism Larry and others like) acting of variation will never, ever build a new, properly defined species.,.. I'm not even going to mention kinds...<br /><br />You work with plants, so you can't ignore THE FACKT THAT THERE IS the barrier that exists between some species and definitely between kinds... You can't turn a rose into an apple tree and the other way around... claiming otherwise is just bullshit that requires faith and not scientific knowledge not to mention experiments....<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-84511175024269249172014-10-23T10:34:02.885-04:002014-10-23T10:34:02.885-04:00Chris B's second reference is a fascinating pa...Chris B's second reference is a fascinating paper where scientists dug an ancient horse bone out of permafrost, more than 560,000 years old, and got a draft of its genome, then compared it with the genomes of domesticated horses and Przewalski's wild horse. This allows them to recalibrate the date of divergence of horses, asses and zebras from a common ancestor back to 4 million years ago.<br /><br />So much for Noah's Flood.<br /><br />URL: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23803765/Diogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15551943619872944637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-90403813063478122482014-10-20T19:57:39.462-04:002014-10-20T19:57:39.462-04:00Quest,
"If evolution were true,"
It is....Quest,<br />"If evolution were true,"<br /><br />It is.<br /><br />"don't you think we would see at least some intermediate species...? What I mean by that is the organisms that are on their way of becoming the more advance species or another species... I'm not talking about variations within a kind like Barbara is trying to sell me... Variation within a kind is not evolution I want to experiment... I know it happens and it is a requirement for obvious reasons or we all would like the same..."<br /><br />Barbara did describe some variation within species, and I mentioned this as well. And you conceded that this happens (so Barbara is not trying to "sell" you anything, she was talking about an empirical fact, which you agreed with). If you are asking about macroevolutionary changes, I already addressed that above, perhaps you missed it:<br /><br />These things don't occur in the time frame of a human lifespan, and you know it. Macro changes you are asking for can only be shown historically. As an example, I direct you to a great study on the evolution of Cetaceans. This describes exactly what you asked for:<br /><br />http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169534714000846<br /><br />Here's another good one on the within-order scale:<br /><br />Nature. 2013 Jul 4;499(7456):74-8. doi: 10.1038/nature12323Chris Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04778164246719803780noreply@blogger.com