tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post6326752093564996401..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: David Klinghoffer recognizes the problems with authorities and quote miningLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-27225897455605342502014-08-30T11:03:50.764-04:002014-08-30T11:03:50.764-04:00Chris B: Steve just swwops in, issues a series of ...Chris B: <i>Steve just swwops in, issues a series of incoherent ad hominem attacks, declares victory and takes off to the next site that allows comments. It's hit and run posting at its worst.</i><br /><br />Perhaps he was simply trying to be 'meta' about the whole affair by doing some quote mining of Ted and Pedro's comments. Too bad (for him) that he doesn't seem to have the skills to do so properly :).Alain Van Houthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14413623255587280299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-5208615182984992112014-08-29T09:41:43.754-04:002014-08-29T09:41:43.754-04:00Robert Byers,
I’m puzzled. You write that quotes ...Robert Byers,<br /><br />I’m puzzled. You write that quotes are "obviously there to be checked by anyone", but then state that "Nobody seeks out ones opponents use of quotes in our world." So, is it permissible to check quotes, or not? Or is it only permissible to check quotes, but not tell anyone else about your findings? Or is it that no one in your world is concerned about accuracy?<br /><br />You also wrote that "These quotes are relevant to researchers own questioning of evolution." In reality, most of these researchers <i>don’t</i> question evolution, but their words have been changed so it appears that they do. I would think that you would be happy that their true views have been revealed.<br /><br />Finally, you also seem to be of the opinion that erroneous quotations are not a result of bad intentions, but mere incompetence. But shouldn’t such incompetence be revealed? Or is that not a concern in your world? In my neck of the woods, competence is very important.<br />Augrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06534417456240169205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-70798878589510115662014-08-29T00:46:59.125-04:002014-08-29T00:46:59.125-04:00Augary
its a bother to investigate accusations lik...Augary<br />its a bother to investigate accusations like these.<br />my experience is that id or YEC nEVER use quotes except they believe the quote is aexcellent point and obviously there to be checked by anyone.<br /><br />If errors are made its no more then usual then any people using ones opponents quotes.<br />Putting a light on creationist quotes is missing the equation of human incompetence. <br />We could do the same but its not the same.<br />These quotes are relevant to researchers own questioning of evolution.<br />Nobody seeks out ones opponents use of quotes in our world.<br />It would only be done if the side complaining believes their case is based on authority and not the facts proven.<br />Its all like using ones spouse quotes against them.<br />there might be error or not on both sides but its not relevant to the bigger issues.<br />Trying to say, as you admit by your claim of dishonesty on Creationists, that creationists strive to deceive people is just silly.<br />Creationists , better then most, have no such diabolical agenda.<br /><br />By the way. These are complicated matters. Easily people can misunderstand ones points. In complicated things context and words easily can give a wrong impression .<br />I always have to watch carefully my words because the creationist is easily banned from internet forums. By other creationists. I'm pretty good and still get falsely attacked.Robert Byershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05631863870635096770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-3665813100572763672014-08-28T10:25:05.935-04:002014-08-28T10:25:05.935-04:00In other words, Byers, you approve of quote mining...In other words, Byers, you approve of quote mining as long as it's done by god pushers. Being willfully dishonest for 'yhwh-jesus-holy-ghost' is a righteous tool in the creationist toolbox, eh?The whole truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219999357041824471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-67126657262202389672014-08-27T22:56:09.264-04:002014-08-27T22:56:09.264-04:00I'm one of the contributors to the The Quote M...I'm one of the contributors to the The Quote Mine Project mentioned by Professor Moran in his post. I would be <i>very</i> interested if you can point to a quote that's been unfairly "dissected" in The Quote Mine Project. Far from such quotes being used "fair and square", they reveal either a staggering lack of honesty, or a mind-numbing level of incompetence. My experience with creationists makes me lean towards the former.<br />Augrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06534417456240169205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-11997777287436293452014-08-27T12:21:19.972-04:002014-08-27T12:21:19.972-04:00YEC or ID creationists do not dishonestly use quot...<i>YEC or ID creationists do not dishonestly use quotes wrong.</i><br /><br />The only other option is that they're too stupid to understand what they read and copy-paste correctly. Doesn't look good either way.Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-69789127794810644982014-08-27T02:23:25.886-04:002014-08-27T02:23:25.886-04:00YEC or ID creationists do not dishonestly use quot...YEC or ID creationists do not dishonestly use quotes wrong.<br />if, i say , IF they get a quote out of context, or misunderstood it, or miss saw words then its honest error.<br />Saying creationists strive to get quotes wrong is losing credibility for the accuser.<br />Its all dumb and besides the point of a science contention.<br />By the way I find evolutionist do correct or say this or that evolutionist is wrong or a old idea is wrong because they want to accomplish something new in the subject.<br />As I said much ado about nothing. Robert Byershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05631863870635096770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-36298938483353977442014-08-26T21:26:52.958-04:002014-08-26T21:26:52.958-04:00Hey Bobby B, we godless evilutionists can play the...Hey Bobby B, we godless evilutionists can play the quote-mine game too:<br /><br />"I believe God has called AiG to ... override the Supreme Court's decision in the Hobby Lobby case and compel for-profit employers to cover the full range of contraception for their employees, as required by the Affordable Care Act.”<br /><br />"There is no God."<br />--Ken Ham, "A Prophetic Message", Core Ministry News 25 Aug 2014.<br /><br />I'm just using quotes "fair and square" just like a good old-school young Earth creationist like yourself. Now wouldn't it be annoying if "our side" did that constantly to "your side"?Sean Boylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14488615727581444079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-81717763375648085132014-08-26T15:32:06.108-04:002014-08-26T15:32:06.108-04:00Nobody does or accuses folks in any other science ...<i>Nobody does or accuses folks in any other science subject of quote mining. It never comes up.</i><br><br />That's because scientists do their own research, they don't have to twist the results of others. But you are wrong, there is an equivalent of quote mining in other fields. It is done by "paradoxers" who, for example, try to show that physics is self-contradictory. A favorite trick is to show that equation 10.69 in a standard textbook contradicts equation 5.38. And they are right, because 10.69 is a <i>simplification</i> of 5.38 which holds only in certain cases, so yes you can find circumstances in which 10.69 is invalid. This behavior is just as wrong and dishonest as quote mining but requires a far higher level of technical expertise. That is why there are far more quote miners than paradoxers.Tedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17631163277582196326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-54534445178665884362014-08-26T14:40:33.810-04:002014-08-26T14:40:33.810-04:00Steve just swwops in, issues a series of incoheren...Steve just swwops in, issues a series of incoherent ad hominem attacks, declares victory and takes off to the next site that allows comments. It's hit and run posting at its worst.Chris Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04778164246719803780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-28199066029360156382014-08-26T11:32:46.695-04:002014-08-26T11:32:46.695-04:00Steve wrote: So the IDists are LIARS
This is the...Steve wrote: <i>So the IDists are LIARS</i><br /><br />This is the first correct thing Steve has said regarding the Discovery Institute. Yes, they are all liars - all of them. It's not an epithet, though, it's their job description. The Disco Tute is a propaganda organization focused on social change. They try to achieve their goals by creating doubt about science and they do that by lying about science. It's not rocket science, although they lie about rocket science, too.<br /><br />Professor Moran is admirable in not dismissing the IDiots at face value but taking the time to expose their prevarications. For example, to simply point out that Behe is wrong misses the more accurate characterization of Behe being deliberately misleading. Behe starts with his conclusion, the Intelligent Designer, then tries to find the tiniest cherry to pick that may, if one squints, support is preconceived conclusion. However, in doing so Moran and others provide a valuable science education moment for the rest of us.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04921039513056888571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-59109610309991383392014-08-26T10:37:23.735-04:002014-08-26T10:37:23.735-04:00natural selection has alway been a bit player...a ...<i>natural selection has alway been a bit player...a maintenance junkie trying to keep intact what's already been made.</i><br /><br />By a god, no doubt, that goes around poking into organism's genomes and puffing mutations into existence by magic as required on a case by case basis. Makes sense, Steve. No doubt ID will be the great scientific revolution of the 21th century.<br />Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-86611542159309115352014-08-26T10:13:39.474-04:002014-08-26T10:13:39.474-04:00Just love the level of argumentation.
Argumentati...<i>Just love the level of argumentation.</i><br /><br />Argumentation, heck - I'd just settle for coherence. Did you and Gary Gaulin attend the same English composition classes? Natural selection, maintenance junkies, inflatable rafts - this is supposed to make sense?judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-29293783552858910292014-08-26T08:48:41.401-04:002014-08-26T08:48:41.401-04:00...and IDiots just miss the point again.
Yes, it&...<i>...and IDiots just miss the point again.</i><br /><br />Yes, it's one of the chief obstacles advocates of science have in arguing with creationists. Almost all creationists are as droolingly stupid as <b>Steve</b> here, such that they are unable to comprehend a simple argument stated in plain English. So it's a considerable challenge to word one's argument in such a way that they can actually follow it.<br />Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-28945015978277477422014-08-26T08:10:24.476-04:002014-08-26T08:10:24.476-04:00So IDists are LIARS and Pedro is Mother Theresa.
...So IDists are LIARS and Pedro is Mother Theresa.<br /><br />Just love the level of argumentation. You a student of Diogenes?<br /><br />Those F#$%n' liars, those IDiots, God, what liars, LIAR, LIAR, waaaaaaaa.....<br /><br />...reminds me of that bit of maternal wisdom....howz it go?? The one that screams the loudest is guilty.<br /><br />Pedro, don't get upset when Behe calls you all out on your pedantic diversions.<br /><br />natural selection has alway been a bit player...a maintenance junkie trying to keep intact what's already been made.<br /><br />Good luck with your inflatable raft there, Pedro.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246115342112568778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-14089778327823336272014-08-26T06:27:55.599-04:002014-08-26T06:27:55.599-04:00@Piotr Gąsiorowski
Oops! Looks like I confused my...@Piotr Gąsiorowski<br /><br />Oops! Looks like I confused myself! Thanks.Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-48799407134706058842014-08-26T06:27:32.219-04:002014-08-26T06:27:32.219-04:00I get it or I don't about the fuss of using pu...<i>I get it or I don't about the fuss of using public quotes.</i><br /><br />Covering all your bases, I see, Robert. Shall we take bets on which it is? Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-82221069270755430862014-08-26T04:06:41.260-04:002014-08-26T04:06:41.260-04:00So Ted, are you saying that any paleontologist fro...<i>So Ted, are you saying that any paleontologist from China is not qualified to speak?</i><br /><br /><br />...and IDiots just miss the point again.Pedro A B Pereirahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15195139833344839287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-79410107414701749762014-08-25T23:54:06.120-04:002014-08-25T23:54:06.120-04:00i should say I don't understand why evolutioni...i should say I don't understand why evolutionists accuse creationists etc of quote mining!<br />yet it fits a bigger equation. evolutionism is so much making its case on the credibility of the small numbers of researchers that to allow even a few musings of criticism about points of evolution UNDERMINES the whole credibility of the theory.<br />Creationists use quotes fair and square and no more in error then anyone who uses quotes.<br />its demonstrating its about AUTHORITY and not the merits that substains evolutionary biology in its claim to be a scientific theory or tested hypothesis.<br />Nobody does or accuses folks in any other science subject of quote mining. It never comes up.<br />this could only be because evolution etc are subjects not proven by the evidence but evolution is proven by the degree ed authorizes claims its proven by the evidence.<br /><br />I get it or I don't about the fuss of using public quotes.<br />Robert Byershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05631863870635096770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-70928813044420307052014-08-25T20:34:11.362-04:002014-08-25T20:34:11.362-04:00So Ted, are you saying that any paleontologist fr...So Ted, are you saying that any paleontologist from China is not qualified to speak?<br /><br />How so anglo-saxonist of you?<br /><br />Eruditon really pisses you all off to no end??!!!<br /><br />Well, we'll just keep chippin' away, thank you.<br /><br />Any you can keep chirpin' away if you'd like....The sound of birds is always soothing to the ear.....Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246115342112568778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-75947064157053441892014-08-25T16:09:30.726-04:002014-08-25T16:09:30.726-04:00Another typo alert: "Meyr" (Ernst) shoul...Another typo alert: "Meyr" (Ernst) should be "Mayr" (lest anyone should confuse him with Meyer).Piotr Gąsiorowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06339278493073512102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-60840918654201654372014-08-25T15:31:14.368-04:002014-08-25T15:31:14.368-04:00Thanks.Thanks.Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-30929498512119674032014-08-25T13:35:02.470-04:002014-08-25T13:35:02.470-04:00One of the more amusing (or infuriating) examples ...One of the more amusing (or infuriating) examples of a quote mine from Meyer's book was described on the Panda's Thumb. Meyer spliced together two phrases by Charles R. Marshall that in the original document were separated by <i>fifteen pages</i>: <br /><br />http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2013/08/stephen-meyer-w.htmlFaizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-42831726122579246762014-08-25T12:54:05.981-04:002014-08-25T12:54:05.981-04:00Typo alert: "Lot's has bee written about...Typo alert: "Lot's has bee written about this quote" -- should be "Lot's been written . . ." or "A lot has been written . . ." or some variant?Barbarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03688261560720381631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-78758622486694976272014-08-25T11:51:55.865-04:002014-08-25T11:51:55.865-04:00Well, in a way Meyer does do "research"....Well, in a way Meyer does do "research". He searches, re-searches, re-searches, and re-searches scientific papers, books, etc., for stuff that he can dishonestly quote mine and otherwise distort. The whole truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219999357041824471noreply@blogger.com