tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post3790088383805616944..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: Professor Sues Students for "Anti-intellectualism"Larry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-1291186813303300382014-05-10T20:46:30.668-04:002014-05-10T20:46:30.668-04:00So did this book ever get published? What (of any...So did this book ever get published? What (of anything) ever came of all of this?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06666304614724678623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-14539725930661175692008-06-24T05:33:00.000-04:002008-06-24T05:33:00.000-04:00Post-modernism is a real nuisance. It gives a bad ...Post-modernism is a real nuisance. It gives a bad name to a very reasonable position (illustrated, for instance, by Gould in many essays) according to which scientists do not think in a vacuum, and are influenced by the social and political atmosphere in which they live. Post-modernism claims to be fighting against naive scientism (science records pure truth, etc.), but as Bachelard showed long ago, those opposed (and flawed) views actually need each other. We don't need to get rid of one of them, but of both.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-70675330405733300022008-06-23T15:59:00.000-04:002008-06-23T15:59:00.000-04:00You can't thrust postmodernism like this as if it ...You can't thrust postmodernism like this as if it were an obligation for them to accept it as if it were "objective truth". To do so is evidently self- contradictory. Does Venkatesan have no social-cultural motivations? That is hardly believable.<BR/><BR/>Further to wave her academic credentials to expect students to accept anything she says... perhaps the most un-postmodern thing you can do!<BR/><BR/>To defend something like ecofeminism, you have to 1) KNOW that you are making a proposal, not delivering a fact of nature. KNOW that you are defending something that is not obvious.<BR/>2) Expect criticism. You have to have a tough skin. In fact, if you properly acknowledge 1), you may avoid most hostile reactions and even win some adepts.<BR/><BR/>If you deliver a postmodern message while at the same time demanding a truly "positivist" obedience and acceptance of your teachings...you are a blatant example of self-contradiction, and students are indeed left scratching their heads.<BR/><BR/>There is a link between ultrapostmodernism and dogmatism. <BR/>A typical problem of pathologically excessive postmodernists is that every issue is transformed in an "us" vs "them", that is, some primitive "political" conflict between groups of people with conflicting social and economic interests. This stops utrapostmodernists from accepting that they may ever be incurring in some REAL mistake: it's just THEIR legitimate worldview. For the ultrapostmodernist, there is simply no good reason why the opinion of others could EVER be better than theirs; it's just a political thing. This mentality of "no other view is better" enables these people to corner themselves into a defence of their particular worldview that is truly dogmatic and impervious to modification.<BR/><BR/>This is NOT what PROPER postmodernism is like; it simply states that our worldviews (paradigms) and the natural world are not the same thing: They do not always coincide. We construct or worldviews biologically and socially. This does not mean that there is no natural world, nor that there is no such thing as an argument o theory that is better than another to describe and study it. It doesn't mean that science does not have it's own distinct way of thinking (and specific advantages) when compared to other approaches to knowledge (for example, philosophy).A. Vargashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876504431768677209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-61634142379053571102008-06-23T13:58:00.000-04:002008-06-23T13:58:00.000-04:00LOL! Tyro describes my first reaction well. Women,...LOL! Tyro describes my first reaction well.<BR/><BR/><I> Women, more than men, have had their lives changed and improved by scientific advances. </I><BR/><BR/>Granted, but it is quite circumstantial. [I hope they don't add "path dependent state" on the woes of any science less than 'complete'. :-P] <BR/><BR/>For example, now that they have found that women is 3 times as likely to get neck problems from car collisions (IIRC mostly from assuming a more upright position, either because of length differences or from different habits), they have started to work out how to construct cars to cut down the difference, use models of the spine that accounts for different mechanical strengths and stresses, et cetera.<BR/><BR/>Now, I think this progress is because evidence based medicine have become more used, because "<A HREF="http://xkcd.com/54/" REL="nofollow">Science. It works, bitches.</A>" And that the differences from now on will be analyzed.<BR/><BR/>But from the post I get the impression that Venkatesan finds this impossible, science clearly lacking a moral framework that produces conforming to such favorable social constructs.Torbjörn Larssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13304729731231255545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-4971601425127351082008-06-23T13:46:00.000-04:002008-06-23T13:46:00.000-04:00Here is a long piece in the Dartmouth Independent...Here is a <A HREF="http://www.dartmouthindependent.com/archives/2008/05/post-9.html" REL="nofollow">long </A> piece in the Dartmouth Independent.<BR/><BR/>Here is my <A HREF="http://transientreporter.wordpress.com/2008/05/18/when-postmodernists-attack/" REL="nofollow">take </A> on it.<BR/><BR/>I think that Venkatesan's behavior in Lowrey's lab was - in my ways - worse than her behavior in the classroom.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-61078437818055486312008-06-23T11:39:00.000-04:002008-06-23T11:39:00.000-04:00Un-be-fucking-lievable. Except, I know, like, ten...Un-be-fucking-lievable. Except, I know, like, ten people who could be her.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-11834794910599966542008-06-23T05:28:00.000-04:002008-06-23T05:28:00.000-04:00I'd call her a loon but wouldn't want to be sued, ...I'd call her a loon but wouldn't want to be sued, YOU ARE NOT A LOON DOCTOR VENKATESANThe Monkeymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17976422973674509612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-10892352971916760462008-06-23T03:29:00.000-04:002008-06-23T03:29:00.000-04:00A high ranking member of the academic power struct...A high ranking member of the academic power structure would attempt to strike down her own powerless younglings?<BR/><BR/>Dark times ahead I see.The Key Questionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05426898630563791849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-1621020821113204762008-06-23T02:25:00.000-04:002008-06-23T02:25:00.000-04:00It is VERY "out of touch" to do lawsuits. Her whol...It is VERY "out of touch" to do lawsuits. Her whole attitude over the clapping thing is too dramatic. You can't be that emotionally sensitive. You need thicker skin to confront flashy differences of opinion.<BR/>I also think her contempt towards the students, regarding their incapacity to grasp, is unwarranted when it is her function to convey her points effectively, and convincingly. <BR/><BR/>I happen to think that it is interesting to investigate how gender can affect science. Many, many scientific studies "proving" the inferiority of women existed, that were later shown to be fraudulent. For too long, this was the dominant opinion in much of XIX-early XXth century science. "A matter of fact" for any good rationalist, positivist empiricist science man of the times (there wasn't much sophistication of epistemology back then)<BR/><BR/>Which brings us to Larry's typical attempts to define groups of "enemies" and paint them with a thick brush. Postmodernism and constructivism (social and neurobiological) are not evil. They have introduced fascinating scientific research and important (essential!) epistemological considerations. <BR/><BR/>It is based on science, where it is most compelling in history and neurobiology. Those who try to take it to the extreme, for instance, to question science in general, or to elevate mythology to the same category of science, enter immediately in self-contradiction as they renounce the very method and observations that actually make the original case for constructivism.<BR/><BR/>I do think Priya takes it too far the ways she has put it. As a constructivist of sorts myself, I would rather say that ocassionally (and documentedly), the scientific community has been incapable of distinguishing between social constructions and facts of nature. <BR/><BR/>Positivist "rationalists", who do not properly acknowledge this, are specially prone to confuse ideas with "simple facts" becoming dogmatically held falsehoods. Remember, woman's intellectual inferiority, until not so long ago, was once nothing but a "fact" of nature to most scientists.A. Vargashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04876504431768677209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-50662243783740392472008-06-22T22:32:00.000-04:002008-06-22T22:32:00.000-04:00"scientific facts do not correspond to a natural r..."scientific facts do not correspond to a natural reality but conform to a social construct."<BR/><BR/>Sure. The only thing I say to the postmodernist feminist pseudoscientists is that next time they get a bacterial infection, they shouldn't take an antibiotic. After all the fact that antibiotics kill bacteria does not correspond to a natural reality, right?Wavefunctionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14993805391653267639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-38661723689771703452008-06-22T21:43:00.000-04:002008-06-22T21:43:00.000-04:00I have read the interview, yes. Bear in mind, it ...I have read the interview, yes. Bear in mind, it was conducted after things had escalated to the level of the lawsuit, which may account for at least some of Venkatesan's somewhat frantic tone.<BR/><BR/>I'm not claiming any special knowledge about what happened in her classroom. Nor am I, personally, a fan of postmodernism.<BR/><BR/>I'm just saying that we shouldn't pass judgment on the content or conduct of her lectures based only on the word of the Dartmouth Review and an editorial in the WSJ. I already pointed out how the WSJ quote-mined her to misrepresent her position on science as a social construct. Why should I believe that same editorial, then, when it tells me her lawsuit is just an overreaction to honest criticism? How do we know the student's remarks in class <I>weren't</I> an "irrational" "diatribe"?<BR/><BR/>Say what you will about postmodernism in general, but I urge skepticism when discussing this particular case, since there's so little evidence to go on. Unfortunately, I very much doubt we'll ever see anything like lecture transcripts.Aaron Golashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536919751920715342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-12413181667318351482008-06-22T19:27:00.000-04:002008-06-22T19:27:00.000-04:00Aaron Golas says,Granted, she still comes off as a...Aaron Golas says,<BR/><BR/><I>Granted, she still comes off as a little crazy, especially since she did try suing her students. But the Review is a breeding ground for budding character assassins. I'd be highly surprised if she's half as unstable as they want you to think.</I><BR/><BR/>Did you really read the interview in the Dartmouth Review?<BR/><BR/>One of the characteristics of this group is to be as obtuse as possible so that nobody can ever pin you down.Larry Moranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-25630135178499505402008-06-22T16:51:00.000-04:002008-06-22T16:51:00.000-04:00So, in summary, a University professor is challeng...So, in summary, a University professor is challenged by a student on a subject that she has spent years researching and on which she has written a book. Instead of refuting the student or defending her position (wouldn't she have done this already to get a PhD?), she <I>quits</I>?<BR/><BR/>That's looney. You'd think she could put the questions in the proper perspective and realize the student was merely expressing his social construct in the mantra upon which his suspect knowledge has been built. If she was really disturbed, she should remember that what she imagines is an historical reality of a student asking difficult questions is actually merely her flawed projection of an external reality and her emotional reaction is subject to her own social reconstruction of recalled social history. She should readjust her own rhetorical apparatus and go back to work.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Kudos to the student for not being intimidated by degrees or credentials and asking some good questions.Adrianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08694840174170043470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-4700342944534752222008-06-22T16:32:00.000-04:002008-06-22T16:32:00.000-04:00"In other words, scientific facts do not correspon..."In other words, scientific facts do not correspond to a natural reality but conform to a social construct."<BR/><BR/>Uhm, no, that's daft, and constructivism doesn't say that. Just because something is socially constructed, which of course scientific facts are, does not mean it does not correspond to reality, which of course scientific facts do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-15079863494601900062008-06-22T13:09:00.000-04:002008-06-22T13:09:00.000-04:00Larry, you've been suckered by the Dartmouth Revie...Larry, you've been suckered by the Dartmouth Review. I'm a little surprised that you didn't catch on, since you actually linked to her article in Dartmouth Medicine. The first blockquote you give is a pretty serious quote-mine.<BR/><BR/>Immediately after writing how she was taught that "scientific facts do not correspond to a natural reality but conform to a social construct," she writes about her experience <STRONG>in the lab</STRONG>:<BR/><BR/>"<I>My experience in [my mentor, Chris Lowry's] lab has shown me that the practice of science is at least partly motivated by the scientific method, though with some qualifications. I found social constructivism too dogmatic in the face of theoretical, abstract reasoning and now find it even more so in view of my experience in the lab, as I have come to realize the characteristics scientific experimentation requires.</I>"<BR/><BR/>So she's actually criticizing (at least in part) the very views that TDR and the WSJ accuse her of holding.<BR/><BR/>Granted, she still comes off as a little crazy, especially since she did try suing her students. But the Review is a breeding ground for budding character assassins. I'd be highly surprised if she's half as unstable as they want you to think.<BR/><BR/>For the record, I've also seen students launch ugly crusades against two visiting professors at Dartmouth, which I thought to be totally unwarranted. So I also wouldn't be terribly shocked if Prof. Venkatesan had a bit of a case to make.Aaron Golashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03536919751920715342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-18550485994784783082008-06-22T12:44:00.000-04:002008-06-22T12:44:00.000-04:00That eco-feminism is pretty insane! It's demonstra...That eco-feminism is pretty insane! It's demonstrable that science benefits women: antibiotics, anaesthesia, ultrasound, gynecology, cancer treatments, birth control for god's sake! Women, more than men, have had their lives changed and improved by scientific advances. <BR/><BR/>And as for the prof! Can we spell self-centred, children?Monadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12523329434641725631noreply@blogger.com