tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post1046966851547849472..comments2024-03-27T14:50:47.345-04:00Comments on <center>Sandwalk</center>: The most important thing about nature according to Bill MartinLarry Moranhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05756598746605455848noreply@blogger.comBlogger85125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-31088191288138930822017-04-25T06:16:22.043-04:002017-04-25T06:16:22.043-04:00Dear Dr. Moran,
I copied and pasted this post (The...Dear Dr. Moran,<br />I copied and pasted this post (The most important thing about nature according to Bill Martin) to my Blog, Epochal Science (https://epochalscience.wordpress.com/), where I collect some news of significance (to me!) to read later. Your forgiveness... <br />best wishes,<br />HikmetHikmet Geçkilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06405915827737706659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-32792745657523752662016-12-30T16:31:51.504-05:002016-12-30T16:31:51.504-05:00Moran, I agree fully that redox reactions are very...Moran, I agree fully that redox reactions are very essential for modern life. I am however not so convinced about their role for early life. If you define life as starting when metabolic processes were quite advanced, then I would agree that they played an important role in the definition of life, but I am most interested in the first processes that later became a part of life, and I do not see that redox reactions are among them. Misconceptions in evolution theorieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221854011348738166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-18193985612864225712016-12-30T16:18:41.087-05:002016-12-30T16:18:41.087-05:00Moran, you say: "2. Modern bacteria are much ...Moran, you say: "2. Modern bacteria are much more complex than their primitive ancestors." How can you be sure about that? Are bacteria really evolving, or are they just adapting to changing conditions?Misconceptions in evolution theorieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02221854011348738166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-27492476493900936682016-08-05T11:26:33.043-04:002016-08-05T11:26:33.043-04:00I can´t believe that anyone would accept my sugges...<i>I can´t believe that anyone would accept my suggestion.</i><br /><br />Is this really what you meant to write? Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-7069148631407048852016-08-05T10:38:40.930-04:002016-08-05T10:38:40.930-04:00Such one odd vision can perhaps result from my wer...Such one odd vision can perhaps result from my wery imperfect presentation. The core of my comment is however trying to stress importance of the influence of information in evolution:<br /><br />the world without consciousness or something corresponding is full of "latent information" (for example the rings in the stump). The central act of evolution is to transform latent to processable information.<br /><br />I can´t believe that anyone would accept my suggestion. However it was pleasant to discuss in Larry´s column, even though I am anong the "much functional genes" supporter.. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16599918818258909821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-1958205625968617822016-08-05T06:48:20.660-04:002016-08-05T06:48:20.660-04:00So you think trees haven't resulted from evolu...So you think trees haven't resulted from evolution?Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-65323939126918992902016-08-04T17:51:14.114-04:002016-08-04T17:51:14.114-04:00I must try to explain my precent poin of view that...I must try to explain my precent poin of view that the world without consciousness or something corresponding is full of "latent information" (for example the rings in the stump). The act of evolution is to transform latent to conscious or corresponding processable information. For example bees have developed transforming the shape, the colour and the electric field of the flowers to processable information. <br /><br />The thigs could wery well be in a different way too; my knowledge is not enough for certainty..Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16599918818258909821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-61836556605881218932016-08-04T15:17:55.743-04:002016-08-04T15:17:55.743-04:00To hopefully clarify further: Why can we not just...To hopefully clarify further: Why can we not just say that the information exists in the tree rings alone? A conscious being can then read or interpret this information, but the information exists regardless of whether this happens. Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-31043575345091783962016-08-04T15:15:00.878-04:002016-08-04T15:15:00.878-04:00It would seem, then, that your argument is circula...It would seem, then, that your argument is circular. You define "information" as something that requires the participation of consciousness, and then argue that information requires consciousness. That doesn't really clarify or explain anything.Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-84627682308341718192016-08-04T14:58:27.190-04:002016-08-04T14:58:27.190-04:00I think you are missing nothing. Though the growth...I think you are missing nothing. Though the growth rings in the stump transforms to information only by intelligent brains, that is by human beings. If information really could be something (not necessarily stuff) itself, would the biosphere with all its living things develop towards bigger amount to the consciousness or corresponding transformed information. For example bees transform to information the shape, the colour and the electric field of the flowers. Information transfer could be the most important secret of evolution.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16599918818258909821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-15932393107414305432016-08-03T20:51:47.170-04:002016-08-03T20:51:47.170-04:00Here's the (probably overly simplistic) way th...Here's the (probably overly simplistic) way that I look at the question:<br /><br />If you cut down a tree and count the rings in the stump, you can determine the tree's age. That is to say, the stump contains <i>information</i> that communicates the age of the tree.<br /><br />This information, however, would be contained within the tree even if no intelligent being ever came into existence. Therefore, information does not depend on the existence of intelligent beings like humans.<br /><br />What am I missing? Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-90582848628588042122016-08-03T19:02:27.199-04:002016-08-03T19:02:27.199-04:00Information is a mathematical (well, actually seve...Information is a mathematical (well, actually several somewhat linked) term. There are scientific theories that can be expressed using Information theory as part of the formalisms used. But there's no definite case that any mathematical term in itself refers to something "real" (that would be a metaphysical claim that is not even broadly accepted). Certainly mathematical abstracta are not part of nature and thus not something we can investigate using natural science. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04521153536420798640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-8820232402771070612016-08-03T16:50:44.878-04:002016-08-03T16:50:44.878-04:00Maybe you are right.Anyway I can`t stop thinking t...Maybe you are right.Anyway I can`t stop thinking that the nature without human beings obeys not at all information but only physical laws. On the other hands if information would be real stuff with crucial influence on happenings it could exist without human beings, but that may be an illusion altogether.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16599918818258909821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-49332406561173759032016-08-03T14:25:14.708-04:002016-08-03T14:25:14.708-04:00Without human being no such information exists. In...<i>Without human being no such information exists. Information as real stuff with crucial influence on happenings may be an illusion altogether or, if really existing, not explainable scientifically yet.</i><br /><br />Absolutely not so. Black hole entropy and temperature are explainable by information theory, which is very much physics and for which humans are quite unnecessary.judmarchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111006189037693272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-71337282445840536112016-08-03T11:20:49.890-04:002016-08-03T11:20:49.890-04:00How odd, Steve, that you would attribute to steve ...How odd, <b>Steve</b>, that you would attribute to <b>steve oberski</b> something that is the direct opposite of what he wrote, when his post is readily visible immediately above yours. Need new reading glasses?Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-53317362086243274522016-08-02T23:30:43.060-04:002016-08-02T23:30:43.060-04:00I thought information as two-faced thing:
"M...I thought information as two-faced thing:<br /><br />"Mainly two points of view have arisen. Information is either a logical description of some phenomena or something real "stuff", which has a crucial influence on all happenings in living and non living materials."<br /><br />"Logical" means not explainable with physics,"real stuff" means "not science yet."<br /><br />I think judmarc`s link means the theory of information, that is logical description of some phenomena. Without human being no such information exists. Information as real stuff with crucial influence on happenings may be an illusion altogether or, if really existing, not explainable scientifically yet. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16599918818258909821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-57793245856329155582016-08-02T21:48:30.165-04:002016-08-02T21:48:30.165-04:00...and this is precisely why Steve Oberski is an .......and this is precisely why Steve Oberski is an ....IDiot! He does really want you to think computers can really be described in terms of their underlying phyics.<br /><br />Just like Bill Martin wanting to reduce the explanation of life to "an exergonic chemical reaction".<br /><br />Bill "wittingly" left out the explanation of just how this chemical reaction came to be AND just how life built upon that reaction.<br /><br />Pesky f*&^% little details.<br /><br />..but Bill already know its "all about dat bass".Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246115342112568778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-39177422970860325182016-08-02T20:58:28.810-04:002016-08-02T20:58:28.810-04:00If a virus isn't alive, what about a 10,000 ye...<i>If a virus isn't alive, what about a 10,000 year old bacterial spore-that germinates later when cultivated in the 'right' environment?</i><br /><br />Your question is kind of an easy one to address but I'm not going to because many years ago as an undergrad in a microbiology program I grew tired of the debate.<br /><br />Instead of such questions, it is best to simply understand what a virus is and what it does whether floating throught the air or in a host cell, what a bacterium is whether existing as a vegetative cell or an endospore, and what a human is whether he is walking down the street, or frozen in a cryoprotectant for 100 years hoping some day they will find a cure for his death.SRMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07299706694667706149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-23637449356910313782016-08-02T19:59:00.050-04:002016-08-02T19:59:00.050-04:00OK, I overlooked the "yet."
You might w...OK, I overlooked the "yet."<br /><br />You might want to look at that link judmarc provided. Information is most certainly amenable to the scientific method. The very fact that we are having this discussion thru the internet demonstrates that. Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-23156325403977004212016-08-02T18:39:12.096-04:002016-08-02T18:39:12.096-04:00I mean that if information were "real stuff&q...I mean that if information were "real stuff" nobody could explain it scientifically yet. Very few scientists think information as stuff.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16599918818258909821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-27326089302536501212016-08-02T17:28:55.165-04:002016-08-02T17:28:55.165-04:00Right. Thanks for catching that.Right. Thanks for catching that.Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-51107148454499511422016-08-02T17:21:48.453-04:002016-08-02T17:21:48.453-04:00Why would science not be able to describe and expl...Why would science not be able to describe and explain "real stuff"?Faizal Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00937075798809265805noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-73440077877475095382016-08-02T16:32:28.666-04:002016-08-02T16:32:28.666-04:00judmarc wrote: wrong answer!
Perhaps. I don`t ful...judmarc wrote: wrong answer!<br /><br />Perhaps. I don`t fully understand.<br />We in Finland have argued much about information. In my mind mainly two points of view have arisen. Information is either a logical description of some phenomena or something real "stuff", which has a crucial influence on all happenings in living and non living materials.<br /><br />"Logicl" means not explainable with physics,"real stuff" means "not science yet."<br /><br />Different thinking is perhaps possible too..I often will try.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16599918818258909821noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-1698911375193305342016-08-02T16:11:09.502-04:002016-08-02T16:11:09.502-04:00"The position against which you are arguing i..."The position against which you are arguing is that biological processes require something other than physics and chemistry..." <br /><br />ITYM *for* which you are arguing?Jon Fleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08191822787220580152noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-37148773.post-2166940939640232392016-08-02T16:07:32.743-04:002016-08-02T16:07:32.743-04:00I love it so! Maybe Byers and Greenie could do a b...I love it so! Maybe Byers and Greenie could do a blog together. Jon Fleminghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08191822787220580152noreply@blogger.com